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To the best of my knowledge, the Russian Orthodox Old-Ritualist Church has never persecuted anybody (and has never really had the chance to persecute anybody!).
I know of no one who is attempting pursue a reconciliation between the Cathari and the Catholics, so there's no reason to comment.
Persecution of the Jews is outrageous, and the excesses of the Spanish inquisition on that issue are only too well known. I know nothing, however, of St. John Ribera.
Saints Thomas More and John Fisher are two of my favorite saints. If they offended by persecuting Protestants, they certainly paid for it in full measure. Here's a poem for your collection:
To a Dean who Spoke Contempuously of a Saint
Tell me not, Dean, I am unkind
if from the snuggery
of thy well-cluttered, cultured mind to Chelsea's strand I flee,
Where England's Chancellor, by grace
of courage so was steeled,
to meet thy tyrant, face to face,
to die - but not to yield.
And though his views, dear Dean, were such
as you will still deplore,
I could not love thee, Dean, so much,
loved I not Thomas More!
All I know about St John of Capistrano is that he is reputed to have flown through the air, and he has a famous shrine in California.
Josemaria Escriva is no hero of mine - nor is Franco!
As always, much depends on whose ox is being gored. Historically, it is the case that the same people who persecuted the Old-Ritualists also persecuted the Greek-Catholics. Forgive me if I sympathize with the Old-Ritualists and am myself a Greek-Catholic, but have relatively little interest in the Cathari.
If you want to read a defense of persecution (!) try Benson, The Dawn of All. I prefer freedom of religion.
Fr. Serge Please read what I said. Was I defending persecution? No. Nor did I say that it is desirable. My point was simple: Catholic and Orthodox alike have canonized people who severely persecuted members of other faiths, so we have no right to throw stones against each other on this particular point. And, in any case, can we really condemn them for having acted according to the standards of their time? In the case of St. John Ribera -- who was canonized by Blessed John XXIII in 1960 -- his direct responsibility for the brutal expulsion of the Moriscos in 1609 is admitted even by Catholic biographers. The painful fact about the expulsion of Moriscos is that it also resulted in the expulsion of many Christians of Morisco descent -- not a few of whom died as martyrs for Christ in the Muslim lands to which they had been unjustly exiled. As for Josemaria Escriva, he may be no hero of yours, but he is definitely a saint of the Catholic Church.
Last edited by asianpilgrim; 12/16/08 08:09 PM.
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And even the great St Nicholas punched the heretic Arius in the face - and we all love him for it!  As you know, during the canonization process of Pope St Pius X, it was noted that, as a parish priest, he once actually knocked out a parishioner on impulse when that fellow curse loudly outside the church after Sunday Mass . . . The Church didn't seem to find that to be a roadblock to his canonization though . . .  Alex I might add St. Damien de Veuster, who was known to hit with his big walking stick the lepers whom he caught engaging in drunken orgies.
Last edited by asianpilgrim; 12/16/08 08:11 PM.
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Coming back to the topic:
Does anybody know how many Edinovertsy communities there are right now?
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If anyone knows, he isn't talking. But there is nothing above the parish level - not so much as a dean - and no publication specifically for them. However, there was a fairly large Divine Liturgy served by some Confidentes (=Edinovertsy) clergy in the Church of the New Martyrs and Confessors, St. Petersburg, in late October.
I have a friend or two going to the Council at the end of January; we shall see what they can ascertain.
Fr. Serge
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Coming back to the topic:
Does anybody know how many Edinovertsy communities there are right now? This webpage gives 20 Edinoverie parishes within the Moscow Patriarchate. http://www.hierarchy.religare.ru/h-orthod-staroob-edinover.htmlThe site says that at the end of the 1990s there were only 8 parishes, so the number has increased by 12 parishes in the last few years. Is the increase a hopeful indication that a reconciliation is slowly occuring?
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If anyone knows, he isn't talking. But there is nothing above the parish level - not so much as a dean Fr Irinarkh (Denisov)has been the Dean of the Moscow parishes of the Edinoverie since 1998.
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If anyone knows, he isn't talking. But there is nothing above the parish level - not so much as a dean Fr Irinarkh (Denisov)has been the Dean of the Moscow parishes of the Edinoverie since 1998. If I'm not mistaken, the Russian Orthodox council of 1917-1918 promised them a bishop of their own, right?
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If anyone knows, he isn't talking. But there is nothing above the parish level - not so much as a dean Fr Irinarkh (Denisov)has been the Dean of the Moscow parishes of the Edinoverie since 1998. If I'm not mistaken, the Russian Orthodox council of 1917-1918 promised them a bishop of their own, right? The norm is not to create a diocese and a bishop unless there is a minimum of 12 parishes and 12 priests. In the past the Patriarchate got around that by creating vicar bishops for the Edinoversty. Since there are apparently now 20 parishes perhaps there could now be a real diocese? On the other hand, one would have thought that an exception could have been made for the Edinovertsy anyway.
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A Dean for the Moscow parishes does not provide anything for the parishes elsewhere.
Fr. Serge
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A Dean for the Moscow parishes does not provide anything for the parishes elsewhere. Just correcting the statement that there was nothing above parish level, not even a dean. They say Fr Irinarkh does a great job as dean.
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Hopefully, there are no "Nikonizations" of the liturgy in the Edinovertsy parishes!
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Hopefully, there are no "Nikonizations" of the liturgy in the Edinovertsy parishes! I imagine that Patriarch Nikon's insistence that the Creed be recited correctly, as formulated by Nicea-Constantinople, has to be adhered to by contemporary Edinoversty?
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Alas! Woe! Father Hieromonk may feel compelled to rend his garments in horror!
If he will be so kind as to refer to the Old Orthodox Prayer Book published in parallel Church-Slavonic and English by the Russian Orthodox Church of the Nativity of Christ (Old Rite), Erie, Pennsylvania, USA, 1986, he will find the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed on page 7, including the word that he imagines may not be used - and the book is published with the blessings of the late Metropolitan Vitaly, who could certainly read Church-Slavonic and could probaby read English.
If that isn't enough, keeping in mind that Father Hieromonk is a supporter of the Orthodox "Western Rites", he might also refer to the Orthodox Missal According to the Use of the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America. Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, New Jersey, 1995. The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed appears on page 177 and again on page 200. Both times, one finds the expression Deum de Deo , which does not appear in the received text in use among most, if not all, of the Eastern Churches. This book carries the authorization and blessing of His Eminence Metropolitan Philip.
Whatever shall we do?
Fr. Serge
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Alas! Woe! Father Hieromonk may feel compelled to rend his garments in horror!
If he will be so kind as to refer to the Old Orthodox Prayer Book published in parallel Church-Slavonic and English by the Russian Orthodox Church of the Nativity of Christ (Old Rite), Erie, Pennsylvania, USA, 1986, he will find the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed on page 7, including the word that he imagines may not be used - and the book is published with the blessings of the late Metropolitan Vitaly, who could certainly read Church-Slavonic and could probaby read English. Indeed, I am shocked that Metropolitan Vitaly allowed a variant Creed claiming to be the Nicene to be used in the Russian Church Abroad. Do you know if that is permitted by Moscow to the 20 Edinovertsy parishes in Russia? That was the actual question from asianpilgrim which I was replying to. If that isn't enough, keeping in mind that Father Hieromonk is a supporter of the Orthodox "Western Rites", I am ??! Well, I admit that I'd like to participate in a celebrate of the Lorrha. But on the whole I have an ambivalent attitude towards Western Rite within Orthodoxy - this ambivalence is shared by most of the bishops in my Church and the great majority of bishops in other Churches. In point of fact, the bishops on the whole are not simply ambivalent, they are opposed. he might also refer to the Orthodox Missal According to the Use of the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America. Saint Luke's Priory Press, Stanton, New Jersey, 1995. The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed appears on page 177 and again on page 200. Both times, one finds the expression Deum de Deo , which does not appear in the received text in use among most, if not all, of the Eastern Churches. This book carries the authorization and blessing of His Eminence Metropolitan Philip.
Whatever shall we do? Ask the hierarchs to pay closer attention before authorising such things? Look at how long the Jordanville Prayerbook has been printed with the dreadful promises attached to the Five Prayers. There is not enough supervision from our bishops on these matters.
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Indeed, I am shocked that Metropolitan Vitaly allowed a variant Creed claiming to be the Nicene to be used in the Russian Church Abroad.
Do you know if that is permitted by Moscow to the 20 Edinovertsy parishes in Russia? That was the actual question from asianpilgrim which I was replying to. Well, that variant was used in Russia for hundreds of years. If no one could make the Old Ritualists change to three fingers from two, I don't think that anyone could make them change their variant of the creed either. For that matter, what difference does it make for the Holy Spirit to be referred to as the TRUE Lord, and not merely as "Lord"? At least, the "Filioque" has real theological fireworks behind it, but this?
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