www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Difficult Decisions and Unanswered Questions

As you may have noticed I am new to this forum. So, this post may or may not belong in this section. Just from browsing the topics here I can tell that this forum is active with some very intelligent members. I suppose I'm what would be called a "Cradle Catholic" (Roman rite)....my Catholicism really goes deeper than that considering I can trace a family link to the Catholic faith at least back to 1850 and I assume farther then that. Growing up I attended Catholic schools from about 7th grade thru H.S. and attended 2 different catholic Universities. As I grew older and learned more about my faith I became unfulfilled with the "NO" mass and the "New" catholic church. Now I'm definitely not old enough to remember the pre-Vatican II Latin mass, but I can remember the guitar and tambourine masses of the 70's....uughhh! For most Catholics the tradition has vanished from the architecture of the churches right down to the mass itself. This led me to start exploring Orthodoxy and Eastern Christianity. I've attended a Greek Orthodox church on 3 separate occasions. The Church itself with all of the icons, incense and Greek chant was amazing. I have also had the opportunity to attend a Byzantine Catholic church. The Byzantine liturgy was good....but did not strike me like the Greek. The main differences were in the church, the chant and the language of the liturgy. The church was small and had that modern multi purpose style to it. The chant (I suppose that's what it would be called) was performed by a woman, the Greek church had a baritone older Greek gentleman and it almost had a middle eastern tone to it. The liturgy was in English.....so, while I could understand it....the mystic holy feeling was lost. Maybe I'm being too superficial and not focused on the important spiritual aspects. One Orthodox acquaintance once told me that the important part about choosing a church is not about the building or service but the Priest (spiritual counselor) and the people to a lesser extant. I suppose this may be true. I never met the Greek Orthodox Priest, but I had the opportunity to speak briefly with the Byzantine Priest. He seemed very nice. By becoming Orthodox I feel as if I am leaving the faith of my ancestors.....by accepting the Byzantine rite I feel as if I will be fulfilling myself spiritually and not betraying my faith. Is this just playing it "Safe" or being "pretend Orthodox"(?) Some of the literature that inspired me and brought me closer to Eastern Christianity would be the works by Father Seraphim Rose and the publication "Death to the World" http://www.deathtotheworld.com/index2.html
I have a feeling that follow the above works would view Byzantine Catholicism as "Orthodox light". I guess I'm just putting this out here to get some feed back...any views or insights at all. Maybe even a dialog that may help others in the same situation. Thank you for your time to read this!

Invictus

Welcome to Byzcath

My thoughts on your post - take your time , read [ which you have been doing ] talk to folk and just wait and see .

I'm sure that in time you will learn where God Himself wants you to be.

Anhelyna

Dear Invictus,

Welcome to the Forum. You are a Seeker and now you must seek. Seek for your place in the Church. Seek for the Truth above all. Open yourself up to the Holy Spirit and wait for His guidance. When it comes, you should feel a real peace and calmness about it. Agitation is from the enemy.

I, too, am a seeker. It isn't always easy. The Truth demands of us hard things, but bestows deep peace as well. Asking that the Lord may bless you, I am

Yours in Christ,

Fr David Straut

Invictus,

Depending on where you are located in Michigan, you could try praying in various Catholic and Orthodox Church to see which parish praxis fits you - the most important thing to strive for is not only the "best place" - since by becoming a member you can help that parish be better - but where will you be challenged to holiness, and how you will accept that challenge.

Outside the Byzantine Tradition, there are Catholic Maronite, Syro-Malankara, Syro-Malabar, Chaldean, and Armenian communities in Michigan. There are also multiple Orthodox Eastern AND Oriental Churches, and also many Assyrian Church of the East parishes. In addition to these, there are Latin parishes which celebrate the Gregorian Liturgy.

I myself, and Many Roman Catholics have similar experiences and have found Eastern Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, or a Latin Rite mass community as our new spiritual home.


It is the Eastern Tradition to use the vernacular language of the people, so if it is Eastern Tradition that you are attracted to, the use of English would be the the proper way for you to worship. Learning another language is admirable, but the Apostle Ss Cyril and Methodius converted using the vernacular, because that is the best way for new members to feel at home and really learn the liturgy. BTW, I am sure there are many Eastern Catholic Parishes that still use the language of the homeland, see a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Parish.

I too love the mysticism of the East, but if you find mystery in music and language just because it is foreign to you, please do not be disappointed when you became familiar with it and the mystery is no longer there.



Does the priest seem to be a holy man? Can you can look to this person as a role model for you and your family? Is he easily approachable and available? (The small parish environment of Eastern Catholics often makes their Priest more available.) Does the Priest speak a language you understand? Having a spiritual adviser with a language barrier might be frustrating. With that said, remember that Priests do come and go from Parishes, so do like other aspects of the Parish, do not let the Priest be the sole deciding factor.


Based on your post it seems that you and your family have quite a connection to the Roman Catholic Tradition, maybe being Eastern Catholic would be a better option if you still have many close family members in the Catholic Church, because you will still be in communion with each other.

Eastern catholicism is not "Orthodox Light", some parishes may have been more influence by Roman Catholicism then others but they are truly Eastern. And you can work to improve your Eastern catholic Parish to be more orthodox in praxis, this has been a directive from Vatican II and the Holy Fathers. In addition, you may remain Catholic and attend various services at Orthodox parishes such as Matins, Vespers Paraclesis, and even Divine Liturgy (as long as you do not commune). Building relationships between the orthodox and Catholic churches is very important to opening dialogue and working toward unity in the Faith.

Please also do not forget that God's will is that we be in communion with the see of Peter, The Pope. There is ample evidence for this in Patristic writings. So many Eastern Catholics have gave there lives to remain in communion with Rome. You Can be Eastern and you can be Catholic! Do some reading on Vladimir Soloviev, +Joseph Raya, +Elias Zhogby, +Andrei Shepitsky, and Leonid Feodorov .

In the end you need to pray on this matter and follow what you feel God is calling you to do.

For some more alternatives to other Eastern Catholic Parishes in Michigan, please see the links below:

Ruthenian

http://www.parma.org/Parishes_map.asp

Ukrainian

http://www.stnicholaseparchy.org/parishdirectory/michigan.htm

Melkite

http://www.melkite.org/parishinfo.html

Romanian

http://www.romaniancatholic.org/directory.php?parishes#michigan

I'm glad I joined this forum and I want to thank those who replied. This has given me much to think about and has helped very much. Yes, I do want to stay in communion with Rome and it's Bishop (the Pope). That leads me to one question: How do Eastern rite churches view the "other" patriarchs? or do they have there own alternatives?

Have a very Merry Christmas everyone!

Invictus,

Welcome to the forum. The queries and spiritual conflicts that you raised in your opening post are not at all unfamiliar to us here and, hopefully, we'll be able to help you with them. I hesitate to say resolve them - because I think that is something which you must do personally, through reading, prayer, and very likely one-to-one discussions with a priest or priests. We're blessed with a pretty unique, incredibly diverse, and wonderful community here. Our members include both Catholic and Orthodox, representative of a significant number of the Churches - Eastern and Oriental, as well as several Latin Catholics with a love for or interest in the East.

As to your second post, I'm not completely certain what you mean when you ask how the Eastern Churches view the "other" patriarchs. If you are asking about the personal and ecclesial relationships between Catholic patriarchs or other hierarchs (in the non-patriarchal Churches) and their Orthodox counterparts, I think the simple answer would be that they are generally excellent.

As an example, the multiple Patriarchs of Antioch - Maronite, Melkite, and Syriac Catholic and Antiochene and Syriac Orthodox - are noted for the collegiality of their relationship and common endeavors in which they regularly participate to develop, operate, and improve educational and social opportunities among their peoples. For another example, here in the US, among non-patriarchal Churches, there is a warm and cordial relationship between the hierarchs of the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Metropolia and the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek-Catholic Diocese. There are many other such examples. There are a few instances, chiefly abroad, in which there are stresses and tension between hierarchs or jurisdictions, but I think those are much fewer than was the case several decades ago.

I apologize if that wasn't the question you were seeking answered.

Many years,

Neil

No offense but I was actually confused by that answer. I suppose the question was a little vague. What I guess I was getting at was Do Eastern rite churches accept the authority of the Patriarch of Constantinople, Moscow, etc. or are there catholic counterparts to these? I suppose the question is rather lofty since I really do not understand the heirachy of the Latin church anyway.

Invictus:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

Welcome to the forum.

Please let me clarify some of your confusion. There are Churches of Apostolic origin that use the Byzantine liturgical and spiritual tradition. Of these, the majority are known as Orthodox Churches. The Orthodox Churches are a family of self-governing Churches each with its own head, but in full ecclesaiastical communion. They are not "under the Pope." Then there are a smaller group of Churches that are of the Byzantine liturgical and spiritual tradition that are in communion with the Bishop of Rome. These are some of the Eastern Catholic Churches. (There are other Eastern Catholic Churches not of the Byzantine liturgical and spiritual tradition.)

Please permit me to bring your references up to date. First of all, we Catholics do not refer to Churches within our communion as "Eastern rite" any longer. These Churches are referred to as sui juris Churches: from the Latin that indicates that they have their own law. That is, these Churches are not simply Latin Churches with different liturgies.

The Eastern Catholic Churches, for any number of historical reasons, have broken communion with their Orthodox brethren of the Byzantine tradition and entered communion with the Bishop of Rome. The whole of this history must be viewed through the prism of the Great Schism of 1054, a topic that has been discussed at length here on this forum and which you may familiarize yourself by a search of the many threads in the archives. The history is a sad chapter in the life of Christ's Church. There are many serious issues that continue to separate Catholics and Orthodox Christians.

Eastern Catholic Churches have their own bishops and these bishops are not in communion with the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Moscow, or any of the other Orthodox Churches. They are in communion with the Pope, the bishop of Rome.

I hope this helps.

In Christ,

BOB

Now I understand a little better. I will be attending another Byzantine Church soon. Anyone here familiar with St. Michael's Byzantine in Oregon Ohio? or Perhaps St. Thomas Byzantine in Allen park Michigan?

You might want to check out Sacred Heart Byzantine Catholic Church in Livonia (South side of Six Mile, just east of Middlebelt). To my knowledge, Fr. Joseph Marquis is the only married Byzantine priest in the eparchy of Parma, and the Bishop's choice of him was a great one for moving the Byzantines toward their own Orthodox praxis. He displays the rare combination of encyclopedic knowledge and true pastoral concern; of course, it also doesn't hurt when a priest can sing well! It sounds like it may be a bit of a hike for you, but there are many who go the distance to be a part of this parish.

I'm a little familiar with the area, I've been to Pascha Books in the multi purpose building. I've purchased quite a few books from them. They are not really that far out of the way. Thankyou for the suggestion, I actually forgot about them.

Invictus,

For the schedule of Divine Services at Sacred Heart, see our directory entry for the parish.

The directory entries for Ruthenian parishes in MI and IL are all complete to the best of my recollection, so you may find other possibilities there as well.

Many years,

Neil

Invictus,

I'm responding to your first post - and frankly what I have to say really is only a widow's mite - but I hope it'll be helpful for you. It looks like your basic question is still relevant.

First, your perceptions of the differences in the Liturgy are keen. Even if we compare Eastern Catholic and Orthodox parishes of the same diocese with each other, you'll get a wide variety of differences. I know a bit about some of the things you wrote about and I'll talk a little about some of them.

Architecture: sometimes they do look like multipurpose rooms. Sometimes this is because of style; frequently it's just a matter of money.

Language: the only reason anyone chose to write the Gospel or have a liturgy in Greek is because that was the language of most people in the Roman empire at the time. At the same time, liturgies were conducted in Hebrew and probably in the various forms of Aramaic. Later on liturgies were conducted in Latin, Arabic, Slavonic..... so, English should not be a problem. he quality of the translation is however an important issue. Unfortunately, it seems that each group of Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches have their own translations. Some translations are better than others.

Chant: the style of chant used at the Byzantine Catholic church you went to is probably the style used by the Carpatho-Rusyns, who live in the Carpathian mountains in the area that forms the border areas of Ukraine-Slovakia-Romania-Hungary. When done properly this is a beautiful style of chant. The Greek style is as you see quite different. But when done correctly, they are for all intents and purposes the same.

I'm actually studying to be a cantor in the Greek tradition (some friends are trying to get met to learn Carpatho-Russian chant too - I can do it OK, but I don't really yet "get" the essence of the style). Chant is partially technical - as in how well you sing, and how well you find and imitate experienced cantors, how you continue and build on what you have been given. Some people might (and do) just pull out some sheet music, play with it on a piano for a while and then go out and sing it. Doing it right is much more complicated; unfortunately not every church is blessed with people who can do this correctly. This is even harder because we have to translate the music, and because (especially these days) many people don't have the connection to those (generally in the old country) who know how to do it right. There are 14 year olds in Greece who are better than 90% of the Greek Orthodox cantors in the US. At the same time, the internet, CDs, youtube and the like gives the dedicated cantor unprecedented resources to learn how to do thing right.

But the real secret to chant is how well you "pray with your heart". This is a universal secret, something that applies to Greek chant, to Carpatho-Russian chant, Gregorian Chant and even Russian or Renaissance Latin polyphony. The liturgical life is the main function of the Church, its main expression of and re-living of the events of salvation history - and from this flows everything else of our Christian lives. The chant is one manifestation of this - it is the expression of the Church, through the cantors who lead the song of the church which is sung in heart (and hopefully in voice!) by the rest of the church. So, a cantor's ability to chant is a function of technique, but even more so it's a fruit of the cantor's spiritual life, which extends into the spiritual life of the parish.

However, it's hard to chant properly; and it's not really something you can do. You can only do your best to do it right, and the Holy Spirit takes it from there.


So (you might rightly ask) what does this all mean? Every parish has strengths and weaknesses of various sorts - but some more than others. I'd suggest that you hang around the ones in your area, see how they are over several weeks, and beg God to give you a home. Greek Catholics - Byzantine Catholics, Ukranian Catholics, Melkite Catholics, etc. - are not "playing" Orthodoxy - they are doing the same thing as - and are subject to most of the same strengths and weaknesses - that an Orthodox parish could have. But again, some are better than others. I think that the "best" Catholic parishes that are "as good as" the "best" Orthodox parishes. I've been to some of our "best" Catholic parishes, as well as some of the "best" monasteries and parishes in Greece - I felt perfectly at home at the ones in Greece (though I probably would be uncomfortable in the long run because of the language difference). The difference between parishes is in the quality of the individual parish - i.e. the dedication and spiritual strength of its inevitably imperfect people. It would pain me to dodge an "outstanding" Orthodox parish - which will feel just like home to me - for a "much weaker" Greek Catholic parish just because of the Orthodox/Catholic difference. But if it became a matter of finding a permanent home, I personally couldn't leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy unless I really sided with the Orthodox in the various Catholic-Orthodox dogmatic disputes. I personally would only have one option - to do my best to live a life of repentance in a "much weaker" parish, and do what little I can in the hopes that God will use what I can do to "improve" the parish.

Sorry that the above is a long winded ramble. But I hope it's helpful to you in at least some way. The only thing I can suggest, after all that, is to check out the various parishes around you, and beg God to give you a spiritual home.

Markos

"Irish melkite" are you a member of Sacred Heart Parish?