www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West filioque and papal authority

What of this Creed? (Seems that adopting the Armenian one universally would end this debate)

THE NICENE CREED
Creed of the Armenian Church

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father.

God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten and not made; of the same nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible;

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, took body, became man, was born perfectly of the holy Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.

By whom he took body, soul and mind and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

He suffered and was crucified and was buried and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven with the same body and sat at the right hand of the Father.

He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.

We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect; who spoke through the Law and through the Prophets and through the Gospels;

Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles and dwelled in the saints.

We believe also in only one catholic and apostolic holy Church;

In one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins;

In the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgment of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life eternal.

There is no "debate" to be settled, because even the Roman Church recognizes the "conciliar, ecumenical, normative, and irrevocable value, as the expression of the one common faith of the Church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council." [Greek and Latin Traditions Regarding the Procession of the Holy Spirit, published by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity; see also Dominus Iesus] Thus, the Armenian Creed is irrelevant.

It is relevant to as to a possible solution to this argument of whether the filioque is heretical. Also, the oft repeated idea that the Latin Church Synod (with the Pope) cannot clarify the Creed, while other Churches can (and have) makes little sense.

In the early Church, several different versions of the Creed were used for Baptisms - and some of them are still around. The West still uses the so-called "Apostles Creed", which is virtually unknown in the East. Pope Paul VI produced a "Credo of the People of God" some forty years ago - it's almost forgotten now, but few Catholics, if any, complained that it was "heretical". There is the so-called Athanasian Creed, which one still hears, although rarely. And there is the Armenian Creed, just quoted. No doubt there are more that I am not immediately aware of.

None of these are much of a problem. To interpolate something directly into the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, however, is indeed a problem, as the history of the last dozen centuries or so demonstrates abundantly.

Fr. Serge

Michael,

The question of whether or not the filioque is heretical is really separate from that of whether it belongs in the Creed. My belief as an EC is that it is not heretical but does not belong in the Creed.

However, to throw out the entire Creed over one word and replace it with a variant form that isn't part of either the Latin or the Greek tradition would require, at the very least, an extremely compelling rationale.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Dear Carson:


This statement does not jibe with the current Codes of Canons of the Catholic Church (East and West) which clearly provide that the Pope's authority is over and above that of an Ecumenical Council. (Cf. Canons 336 to 341 of the Latin Code and mirrored in Canons 42 to 54 of the CCEO.)

Section 1, Canon 41, of the Latin Code (cf. Sec. 1, Canon 54, of the CCEO) states:


This is preceded by Canon 338 which states that "[i]t is the prerogative of the Roman Pontiff alone to summon an Ecumenical Council, to preside over it personally or through others, to transfer, suspend or dissolve the Council, and to approve its decrees."

Amado

The fact that the Armenian Church has chosen not to use the ecumenical and normative creed of the Second Ecumenical Council is irrelevant to the dispute between the Roman Church and the Orthodox Churches, and its choice to go against the ancient canons by modifying the creed is certainly not the answer to the problems separating the Churches today. Thus, as I have already said, the fact that the Roman Church has recognized the normative value of the creed of A.D. 381 is the real solution, and so it should restore the use of that creed throughout the West, as it was original written (i.e., without the filioque), and that will bring to an end one of the many obstacles to reconciliation between Catholics and Orthodox.

Essentially yes. It's not heresy. Defined doctrine is unchangeable; a Pope or council can define Roman Catholic doctrine but can't change past definitions.

I understand the Greek Catholics never were required to add the filioque; they self-latinised here as in most cases.

They do have to accept all 21 RC councils (including the seven shared with Orthodoxy) and the Roman definition of the infallibility of the papal office on faith and morals.

Carl,
I beleive the Pope is infallible in and of himself, however he is bound by dogmatic teaching of the Church. He cannot reverse the Church's belief in the Trinity or its pronoucnements about the Mother of God.
Stephanos I

Which is exactly what Rome teaches.

Excuse me? That list of 21 RC councils is itself not official; it can be and has been challenged.

Pastor Aeternus is worded with great care to avoid saying too much. May I suggest reading it with equal care?

Fr. Serge

Amado,

I think the point here is that once all this has been done, even the same Pope cannot change his mind on it, much less any future Pope, without holding another council. Furthermore, he can only disapprove a council's decrees with grave reason.

(FWIW, current Canon Law notwithstanding, all seven of the great ecumenical councils were called by the emperor, and even the Council of Trent was called by the "Holy Roman" emperor.)


Peace,
Deacon Richard

The Council of Constance was also called by the Holy Roman Emperor. And the last time that an Emperor vetoed a papal election was about 100 years ago - the Emperor was Francis Joseph.

Fr. Serge

Do the same issues apply to the change by the current Russian version of the Creed?

The Orthodox position, as I understand it, is that all translations of the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed should be made from the original Greek text.