www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West filioque and papal authority

Which is more true to the original in the case of Russian Usage?

and are there other cases of different uses within other Churches of the Eastern Orthodox Communion?

In the early Church, several different versions of the Creed were used for Baptisms - and some of them are still around. The West still uses the so-called "Apostles Creed", which is virtually unknown in the East. Pope Paul VI produced a "Credo of the People of God" some forty years ago - it's almost forgotten now, but few Catholics, if any, complained that it was "heretical". There is the so-called Athanasian Creed, which one still hears, although rarely. And there is the Armenian Creed, just quoted. No doubt there are more that I am not immediately aware of.

None of these are much of a problem. To interpolate something directly into the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, however, is indeed a problem, as the history of the last dozen centuries or so demonstrates abundantly.

Fr. Serge

We believe:
Acts 15:11 - But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will John 16:30 - Now we know that you know all things, and need none to question you; by this we believe that you came from God.


In one God:

Malachi 2:10 - Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?Ephesians 4:6 - one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.


The Father Almighty:

Ephesians 6:23 - Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.Genesis 35:11 - And God said to him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall come from you, and kings shall spring from you.



Maker of all things:

Genesis 14:22 - But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have sworn to the LORD God Most High, maker of heaven and earth.Hebrews 11:10 - For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.Isaiah 44:24 - Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth--Who was with me?Ephesians 3:9 - and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things.



Visible and Invisible:

Colossians 1:16 - for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.


And (we believe) in one Lord Jesus Christ:

Acts 11:17 - If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"2 Corinthians 1:3 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort.



The Son of God:
Matthew 14:33 - And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God.1 John 4:15 - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.


The Only Begotten:

Psalms 2:7 - I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my son, today I have begotten you.Hebrews 1:5 - For to what angel did God ever say, "Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"?


The First Born of all created:

Colossians 1:15 - He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.Hebrews 1:6 - And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him.



"Begotten of His Father before all worlds and not made:

Hebrews 5:5 - So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, "Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee.”Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.John 1:10 - He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not.Mark 14:58 – “I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.”


Very God of Very God:

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.1 John 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.John 20:28 - Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!



"Of one essence with His Father:

Revelation 1:8 - "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.Isaiah 44:6 - Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.Revelation 1:17 - When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last, Philippians 2:6 - who, though he (Jesus) was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.Colossians 2:9 - For in him (Jesus) the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.John 10:38 - but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.



By whose hands the worlds were was established and everything was created:

John 1:3 - all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.John 1:10 - He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not.Revelation 4:11 - "Worthy art thou, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honour and power, for thou didst create all things, and by thy will they existed and were created.


Who for us men and for our salvation came down form heaven:

John 6:38 - For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.John 6:41 - The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven.John 3:13 - No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man. John 6:42 - They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all menLuke 1:77 - to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins.2 Timothy 2:10 - Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory.


And was incarnated by the Holy Spirit:

Matthew 1:18 - Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed toJoseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit.Matthew 1:20 - But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.



And became man and was conceived and born of Virgin Mary:

Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. Matthew 1:16 - and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.
Luke 1:27 - to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.



He suffered and was crucified in the days of Pontius Pilate:

Acts 4:27 - for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, Matthew 16:21 - From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.Matthew 27:26 - Then he released for them Barab'bas, and having scourged Jesus, delivered him to be crucified.Acts 2:36 - Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.



He was buried and He rose again on the third day (first day of the week – Sunday):

Mark 15:46 - And he bought a linen shroud, and taking him (Jesus) down, wrapped him in the linen shroud, and laid him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a stone against the door of the tomb.Mark 16:9 - Now when he (Jesus) rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.
Luke 24:5 - and as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, 7 that the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and on the third day rise." 8 And they remembered his words, 9 and returning from the tomb they told all this to the eleven and to all the rest.Matthew 16:21 - From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. Matthew 28:1 - Now after the sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Mag'dalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulcher.


As it is written and ascended into Heaven and sat on the right hand of His Father:

John 20:17 - Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."Mark 16:19 - So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.



And He shall come again to judge the dead and the living:

John 5:22 - The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son.Acts 10:42 - And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that he (Jesus) is the one ordained by God to be judge of the living and the dead.


And (we believe) in one Holy Spirit, the spirit of truth:

Luke 12:12 - for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."Acts 1:5 - for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."Titus 3:5 - he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.John 14:17 - even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.


Who proceedeth from the Father, the life-giving Spirit:

Luke 11:13 - If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"John 15:26 - But when the Counsellor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me;1 Corinthians 15:45 - Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.



And (we believe) in one Holy Apostolic and Catholic (universal) Church:
Ephesians 2:20 - built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone. Ephesians 5:25 - Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendour, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.Matthew 28:19 - Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.



And we confess one Baptism for the remission of sins:

Mark 1:4 - John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.Peter 3:21 - Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.Acts 2:38 - And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



And the resurrection of our bodies and the life for ever and ever:

Romans 6:3 - Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of theFather, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.1 Corinthians 15:12 - Now if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; 14 if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.1 Corinthians 15:21 - For as by a man (Adam) came death, by a man (Jesus) has come also the resurrection of the dead.John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.John 6:47 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.Romans 6:22 - But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. Jude 1:21 - keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Amen.

Dear Carson:


This statement does not jibe with the current Codes of Canons of the Catholic Church (East and West) which clearly provide that the Pope's authority is over and above that of an Ecumenical Council. (Cf. Canons 336 to 341 of the Latin Code and mirrored in Canons 42 to 54 of the CCEO.)

Section 1, Canon 41, of the Latin Code (cf. Sec. 1, Canon 54, of the CCEO) states:


This is preceded by Canon 338 which states that "[i]t is the prerogative of the Roman Pontiff alone to summon an Ecumenical Council, to preside over it personally or through others, to transfer, suspend or dissolve the Council, and to approve its decrees."

Amado

Essentially yes. It's not heresy. Defined doctrine is unchangeable; a Pope or council can define Roman Catholic doctrine but can't change past definitions.

I understand the Greek Catholics never were required to add the filioque; they self-latinised here as in most cases.

They do have to accept all 21 RC councils (including the seven shared with Orthodoxy) and the Roman definition of the infallibility of the papal office on faith and morals.

From Byzantines.net:

The Chaldean and Assyrian Churches have similar liturgies of the same East Syriac origin... Its version of the Nicene Creed, like that of the Armenian Church, is in the formulation which emerged from the Council of Nicea unamended by the later Council of Constantinople.

The Catholic Church acknowledges the conciliar, ecumenical, normative and irrevocable value, as expression of the one common faith of the Church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council. No profession of faith peculiar to a particular liturgical tradition can contradict this expression of the faith taught and professed by the undivided Church.

I agree completely with Roman bishop, who requested a clarification on the filioque, which was later published by Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, and which included the following statement:

At least two issues remains for Byzantine Catholics as I understand it. First, does the bishop of Rome have the authority to change the wording of the Creed. Second, do BC's accept double procession even though we do not accept the use of the filioque and if we do not are we in heresy?

... the doctrine of the Filioque was declared to be a dogma of faith in the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the Second council of Lyons (1274), and the Council of Florence (1438-1445). Thus the Church proposed in a clear and authoritative form the teaching of Sacred Scripture and tradition on the Procession of the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.

This, of course, makes the second issue you raise a real problem indeed, since these councils have stated in effect that anyone who rejects Augustine's explanation of the dogma of the Trinity has rejected that dogma itself.

that the Catholic Church, following a growing theological consensus, and in particular the statements made by Pope Paul VI, declare that the condemnation made at the Second Council of Lyons (1274) of those “who presume to deny that the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son” is no longer applicable.