www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship The Kliros Ensuring Beautiful Liturgies

Why indeed? The people were never asked about this reform. Cantors with 20, 30 and 40 years of experience were never asked about this reform. Outside professional musicians were hired instead of the cantors who have given their lives. Only the ‘professionals’ know what ‘beautiful liturgy’ is. Since we people in the pew and the long term cantors don’t like it we are all obviously stupid and need to be obedient to the ‘professionals.’ What a church!

I am still a Byzantine Catholic (44 years) and will likely remain one just to keep our Bishops in line.

Perhaps it is not a reflection of how fast one sings or how long the sermon is.

Our regular weekday liturgies, without a sermon would be about 50-55 minutes. Sundays are longer 1) we now have just one Divine Liturgy. More people attending, more communicants. 2) our priest does more than a 5 min "cheese whiz" sermon.

We actually sing at a pace faster than in Pittsburgh. I have personally experienced this because I recorded numerous Divine Liturgies during my travels.

Do not judge all parishes by the experience of one parish, or a relatively small sampling. for example, I was in Hazelton, PA several years ago on a weekday- the DL was recited by priest and people and finished in under a half hour. A very disappointing experience. I remember another priest who "said" all the cherubic hymmn prayers, did the incensing, and was waiting for us to finish the cherubic hymn sung once and as quickly as I had ever heard it sung before! Another disappointing experience. And these were in the pre RDL days! If I were to judge all parishes by those examples, I would have been grossly unfair to those parishes which do celebrate beautiful edifying liturgies.

Let's not count "weekday" liturgies. They don't exist in the Orthodox church. (Well, maybe in the ACROD, for now.) To say it was "recited", well, all I can say is that I've never witnessed a Pittsburgh Metropolia "recited" liturgy. The only recited liturgies I've been to were all Ukrainian Catholic on Saturday night and Sunday morning.

I attended a Byzantine Catholic grade school, and the weekday liturgies we attended were always sung. ([b]Eternal Memory to Professor Nicholas Kalvin who was the "Cantour". I was only nine years old at the time, and I can still hear his voice. Truly one of the best voices to ever sing prostopinije!)[/b]

"Recited" liturgies are an abomination. Period.

Christ is Baptized!
Yes, eternal memory and blessed repose to Professor Nicholas Kalvin.
His impact is still with us.
Deacon El

Do Eastern Catholics (or anyone non-orthodox for that matter) you have to leave a ROCOR parish prior to the Liturgy of the Eucharist?

Yep, it's true. Cossacks surround the congregation immediately after the Little Entrance, and those whose beard isn't long enough, or who pronounce Gospodi with even a trace of an "h" are escorted outside and loaded on trains bound for the Arctic Circle.

Alexandr

Lol!

<quote>Let's not count "weekday" liturgies. They don't exist in the Orthodox church. (Well, maybe in the ACROD, for now.) To say it was "recited", well, all I can say is that I've never witnessed a Pittsburgh Metropolia "recited" liturgy. The only recited liturgies I've been to were all Ukrainian Catholic on Saturday night and Sunday morning. </quote>

Ok, I'll stick to Sunday Liturgies at a church I know intimately, my own parish.

Our Sunday Divine liturgies are typically 1 hour 15 minutes, during Lent DL of St Basil is closer to 1hr 30min. If the homily were not counted as "liturgy time" , we would still be just about an hour anyway with a typical SUNDAY Divine Liturgy.
During the past three months, I have been keeping track of the actual start of the Prothesis at 9:30am, the Divine Liturgy starting around 9:40 a.m. "Blessed is the Kingdom...", and the final blessing typically between 1045-11:00 am. This information I have collected from Jan 2009 to March 2009.

Yes, we do now sing the DL from the RDL green book. Even with it's attendant translation issues, we still do manage to sing a reverent Divine Liturgy and not be in a mad rush finishing a mere 45 minutes later. Our typical attendance is around 70 souls on a given Sunday.

On a side note, I have personally witnessed (as in, attended) weekday Divine Liturgies at both ACROD and OCA parishes on both coasts, (California and NJ). So, to say they categorically don't exist, is to be limiting one's information to a small subset of the greater picture.

I will agree that recited Divine Liturgies are an abomination and should be strongly discouraged in favor of chanted liturgies by our respective Bishops, Orthodox and Eastern Catholic.

It is far less a matter of what color whatever DL books are used than how the cantors, priests, and congregation respond to them that determines if it can or will be a "Beautiful" Divine Liturgy.

A ten minute Proskomedia? My goal is to start an hour before the Liturgy so that I won't have to be reading the names in the Commemoration Books during the Antiphons of the Liturgy. Even if I had no Commemoration Books from the people, and did not commemorate anyone but the Patriarch and Ruling Bishop by name, I don't think I could complete the Proskomedia in ten minutes. It takes at least 5 minutes to cense the church after the Proskomedia before the Liturgy begins. Can any Greek Catholics out there help me understand how the priest can do this in ten minutes?

Fr David Straut

OK Just delete my post then if it causes so much injury to read.

Now I know why I don't bother logging onto Byzcath.org anymore. everyone here has such thin skin!!!!!

Thin skin? Why Steve, it appears to me that you are the one suffering therefrom. I'm sorry if my question upset you so. My question is legitimate, I think. There are perhaps some shortcuts being used by the priest. I pass no judgement on them. I just want to know what they are. And unless you are a priest, you may not know the answer. Perhaps someone else does.

Fr David

Father David,

I have attended Orthodox Divine Liturgies in the OCA, ROCOR, GOA, as well as in Romania and Germany. I have even served at the altar for Orthodox bishops at the Orientale Lumen conferences. Never in all of these experiences have I seen the Proskomide take more than twenty minutes. My experience as an altar server in various Greek Catholic Churches is similar. I guess nobody is quite as scrupulous as you are.

Father David bless. My experience as an altar server in the Greek Catholic Church echoes Stuart's. 15-20 minutes is the average.

Dear Stuart,

First of all, I asked how it was possible to perform the Proskomedia in ten minutes? You talk about a Prokomedia twice as long as that: 20 minutes. Being a priest, I realise that if there were practically no commemoration of specific names for the living and departed, a 20 minute Proskomedia is possible. I asked about a 10 minute Proskomedia and how that was done practically.

Secondly, unless you are a priest, and perform this service yourself, you are probably not able to answer this question. I'm waiting for someone who is.

You state that you "have attended Orthodox Divine Liturgies in the OCA, ROCOR, GOA, as well as in Romania and Germany." That's great. You then state "Never in all of these experiences have I seen the Proskomide take more than twenty minutes." My goodness. I sounds as though you regularly go to church to watch the Proskomedia. Highly unusual. Have you been at all those Liturgies for the Proskomedia? Because I'd say that isn't typical. Very few of the laity (or even concelebrating clergy) are around when the (junior) priest is performing the Proskomedia.

I'd venture to say that I've probably had more experience in ROCOR churches than you, and whenever I've been present (i.e. without me being the one actually performing the Proskomedia) it has taken much longer than 20 minutes. I'm also quite familiar also with the Antiochian Archdiocese (where I became Orthodox and was a priest for 12 years) and in the OCA (in which I have close family) and 20 minutes might be possible in some places, but it would take much longer in other places.

You state "I have even served at the altar for Orthodox bishops at the Orientale Lumen conferences. Never in all of these experiences have I seen the Proskomide take more than twenty minutes." Hierarchal Liturgies are unusual situations. The Proskomedia is split in two. The first part is done by a priest long before a Hierarch is on the scene. The Hierarch completes the service in the middle of the Liturgy when obviously he cannot keep people waiting by commemoration thousands of names.

Your comment, "I guess nobody is quite as scrupulous as you are" is perhaps not meant to be as impertinent as it sounds. All I can say is that I am not very scrupulous at all. When presented with names to be commemorated at Proskomedia, I try to commemorate them. It takes time to do so. Not scrupulous, just trying to do my job.

Wishing you a blessed remainder of the Fast, I am

Yours in Christ,

Fr David