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#31002 12/07/05 08:51 PM
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Adversas,

Forgiveness is the Lord's, and we can only emulate that virtue. It seems though that the posts in this thread have not tried to bring an understanding of each other, but have instead have tried to polarize the different members. that is not the purpose of this forum.

Let us stop making implications and grow together in the spirit of the Orientale Lumen. A polarized church will always have weaknesses to be exploited, were if we can grow together, we will bring a stronger witness of the Truth of our Lord Jesus Christ through His apostolic church.

I know that I express the sentiments of many on this forum.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Moderator


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
#31003 12/08/05 12:57 AM
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Hello All,
This is my first posting here, and while it will be somewhat prolix, and in all likelyhood wandering, I hope you will bear with me as I have things that I feel I must express in this August forum, particularly with regard to this topic.
By way of introduction, I am a Latin-rite Catholic, practising in the classical rite (within the church proper of course, I am somewhat spolied in this regard living where I am), who also maintains and nurtures, Eastern devotions and a deep love of all the liturgies of the Church, even if the current missa normativa is perhaps the plain one among the various sisters forming the liturgies of the CC. It pains me, and indeed hurts to hear of the injustices that continue to be foisted upon our Byzantine cousins by ignorant and arrogant Latins, particularly the SSPX and SSPV-Thuc types with their rigorist and Roman-supremecist ideology. I have at my own church, tried to educate fellow Latins about the East, its history, its richness, and its depth in my own poor way. Always trying to illustrate the truly apostolic anture of Eastern worship, and once even drawing undeserved praise from my priest for saying "One does not honor Peter by denigrating James and John". I am indeed sorry if Latins, imbued with a false sense of superiority which is not of the Spirit, have lorded it over others, in a way that Peter himself never did.
That being said, I have noticed a contrary tendency largely among the Byzanties of this forum, "Honoring James and John by denigrating Peter". It just sems to me that some Easterners, particularly Byzantines, even Catholics, feel it important to cut Peter out of the picture in Rome, to sugest that he came, was crucifed, failed, and the church sort of re-started by the East, and only holy, apostolic, and Catholic insofar as she is Eastern. A good example of this is the frequent attempts to negate or deny the apostolic nature of western practise, sacraments, or liturgy, to say in effect, that Western Christianity is an inauthentic expression of Faith. This is what seems to undergird, for example, some assertions that the Latin rite of Mass is of recent coinage or invention, or at any rate, an eastern import From Alexandria. As far as any cursory study I have done, seems to show that barring any archeological discoveries, our knowledge of liturgy before 350 is fragmentary at best, to the point where determinations of causality or temporal order are rather iffy to put it mildly. For example, Fr. Boyer, one of the most esteemed liturgy scholors alive today, claims that the Roman ordo is older than any Eastern one currently in practise, and that the Roman cannon is the one most similar to prechristian Jewish liturgical prayers. I do not say this by way of assertion or argument, but just simply to illustrate that "infinite are the arguments of liturgists". My own personal view is for anyone of the modern church to argue that their liturgy is the most "authentic" or "apostolic" seems to me like two men on the street arguing over who is more closely related by blood to Sargon the Great. Does noone here ever sit in wonder at the unity and diversity of rites, how all seem to flow from one source and move onto one end? Has nobody here ever been struck by the intensity, concentration, and brass-tacks just-the-facts-ma'am simplicity (like Homer's Illiad) of the classical Roman rite and said "This is how a man named 'Rock' would pray?": Am I the only oe who hears the joy, wonder, depth and height, and breadth (Like Homer's Oddessey) of the Beloved desciphle in the Byzantine liturgy?: Am I the only one who has ever thought "So this is how Thomas taught" while reading the Anaphora of Addai and Mari? Maybe I am a fool. No correct that, I AM a fool. I am certain that the ignorant ramblings of a shameless romatic will be justly and quickly scorned for wht they are. The infantile desire of a lost Catholic, who wants to see just one heart, like St. Wenceslas of Bohemia, or Servant of God Fulton Sheen, or G.K. Chesterton, who could encompass unity and diversity, truth and paradox, all within one heart. Does such a one even exist today? Does it exist at all in this charnel-house world of walking corpses and talking bones?

#31004 12/08/05 01:10 AM
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Dear Timbot2000,

I think you have to realize that the Eastern Catholic Churches are a very small cottage next to a rather large skyscraper. Eastern Catholics are often scattered, alienated from their Latin brothers (due to a difference in praxis), and despised or at least not understood by the Orthodox.

To an extent, they have to be a bit defensive about things. I think it just goes with the territory. But I think most Eastern Catholics are balanced about where they stand the majority of the time.

Hey, I consider them really nice people with a real nice liturgy and a very welcoming attitude (something rare among Latin trads, I will admit right now).

#31005 12/08/05 09:21 AM
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I know I've not been as charitable as I should be in this thread. I apologize, I got caught up in the heat of the battle, as it were.

I enjoy playing the devil's advocate, as I suspect Adversus does too.

As for the Latin Trads... God save me, I'm going to visit them tonight for High Mass!

#31006 12/08/05 04:01 PM
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I host a weblog (http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com), which, while focused particularly upon the Latin rite, tries to include voices of the Eastern Church as well; in fact I'd like to see more of this. To that end, I have Abbot Joseph of the well known Holy Transfiguration Monastery in the Redwoods of California on board, who occasionally graces us with his contributions.

I am one for "the multiple treasures of Catholicism". Good and true liturgy accomplishes the sacred realities, whatever historical form it might happen to take. There are particular beauties and strengths in all orthodox liturgical rites, and all of them perpetuate that one and the same sacrifice of Christ, bringing him down onto our altars; the acceptable sacrifice.

#31007 12/08/05 04:10 PM
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Discussions on ANY Internet forum tend to get, shall we say, lively wink at times. I don't think the Byzantine Forum is any better or worse than any other site on the Net.

And I didn't see anything that anyone needed to apologize for. But if I'm wrong, I apologize. smile wink

#31008 12/08/05 04:39 PM
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Oremus et pro schismaticis: ut Deus et Dominus noster eruat eos ab erroribus universis; et ad sanctam matrem Ecclesiam Catholicam atque Apostolicam revocare dignetur.

Incognitus

#31009 12/08/05 04:47 PM
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The Roman Canon as was presented by the Tridentine and its parent rites is clearly an abbreviated Alexandrian Canon. The Church of N Africa and that of Rome shared the same rite which alludes to where/how/who transmitted--the See of Alexandria. Talk of the petrine office while discounting "eastern imports" is rather ironic as well; wheras, St. Peter was first Bishop of Antioch and was "imported into Rome." Lastly, St. Peter DID NOT preside at the Council of Jerusalem but rather St. James, which further contradicts the notion of Apostolic origins to "petrine primacy." Moreover, the allusion to Boyer bears half truth: it references the Apostolic Constitutions which clearly indicate the antiquity of the Antiochian school of Liturgy and in many cases its preeminence, but what it failed in the mentioning is that there are indeed extant fragments of Eastern liturgy while little Western liturgical texts. Did Rome not have a Eucharist? St. Clement proves they did. The demographic shifts and Patristic allusions and statements indicate to us a hint that there was a "common celebration." Since the Gospel came from the East and almost every liturgist agrees in the antiquity and preeminence of the Antiochian and Alexandrian schools, we can conclude that Fr. Bouyer's assessments are, euphemistically, grounded more in biased aspirations than fact--fr. Taft would be the first to say so.

#31010 12/08/05 05:25 PM
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Thank you Kollyvas. I am gratifed that at least I was not disappointed in my expectation. I asusme you are Orthodox, if so, many years. You are then honest.

#31011 12/08/05 05:29 PM
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Ah, yessss! Theology down and dirty.

Peter "imported into Rome", let me see, I guess "against his will" comes next, never mind the primacy thing.

No matter, I'm off to get ready for my silly novus ordo Mass for the "Feast of the Immaculate Conception". wink Hopefully, I can make it early enough for Confession, although I think I need to spend much time in prayer even before I do that. Receiving the Eucharist will have to wait.

Sometimes I thank God I am not so learned. Ignorance is bliss.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Bill

#31012 12/08/05 06:54 PM
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Orthodox without apologies...

#31013 12/08/05 07:37 PM
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Quote:

...Immaculate Conception: the Byzantine Church practically has no coherent concept of original sin. Have you ever tried reading Romanides' "Ancestral Sin". It's kind of like trying to read Husserl or Heidegger: lots of twists and turns and it goes nowhere....

Let's begin by offering an Orthodox explanation for the Incarnation:

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/voploschenie_florovsky_e.htm

Cur Deus Homo?

The Motive of the Incarnation


Fr. George Florovsky




"I am the Alpha and the Omega." (Rev. 1:8)


"Cur Deus Homo? The Motive of the Incarnation" appeared in Evhariste-rion: Hamilcar Alivisatos (Athens, 1957), 70-79. Reprinted by permission. The translations from Latin were done by Raymond German Ciuba; those from Greek, by Stephen N. Scott.


I.

The Christian message was from the very beginning the message of Salvation, and accordingly our Lord was depicted primarily as the Savior, Who has redeemed His people from bondage of sin and corruption. The very fact of the Incarnation was usually interpreted in early Christian theology in the perspective of Redemption. Erroneous conceptions of the Person of Christ with which the early Church had to wrestle were criticized and refuted precisely when they tended to undermine the reality of human Redemption. It was generally assumed that the very meaning of Salvation was that the intimate union between God and man had been restored, and it was inferred that the Redeemed had to belong Himself to both sides, i.e. to be at once both Divine and human, for otherwise the broken communion between God and man would not have been re-established. This was the main line of reasoning of St. Athanasius in his struggle with the Arians, of St. Gregory of Nazianzus in his refutation of Apollinarianism, and of other writers of the IVth and Vth centuries. "That is saved which is united with God," says St. Gregory of Nazianzus.1 The redeeming aspect and impact of the Incarnation were emphatically stressed by the Fathers. The purpose and the effect of the Incarnation were defined precisely as the Redemption of man and his restoration to those original conditions which were destroyed by the fall and sin. The sin of the world was abrogated and taken away by the Incarnate One, and He only, being both Divine and human, could have done it. On the other hand, it would be unfair to claim that the Fathers regarded this redeeming purpose as the only reason for the Incarnation, so that the Incarnation would not have taken place at all, had not man sinned. In this form the question was never asked by the Fathers. The question about the ultimate motive of the Incarnation was never formally discussed in the Patristic Age. The problem of the relation between the mystery of the Incarnation and the original purpose of Creation was not touched upon by the Fathers; they never elaborated this point systematically. "It may perhaps be truly said that the thought of an Incarnation independent of the Fall harmonizes with the general tenor of Greek theology. Some patristic phrases seem to imply that the thought was distinctly realized here and there, and perhaps discussed."2 These �patristic phrases� were not collected and examined. In fact, the same Fathers could be quoted in favor of opposite opinions. It is not enough to accumulate quotations, taking them out of their context and ignoring the purpose, very often polemical, for which particular writings were composed. Many of these �patristic phrases� were just �occasional� statements, and they can be used only with utter care and caution. Their proper meaning can be ascertained only when they are read in the context, Le. in the perspective of the thought of each particular writer.


II.

Rupert of Deutz (d. 1135) seems to be the first among the medieval theologians who formally raised the question of the motive of the Incarnation, and his contention was that the Incarnation belonged to the original design of Creation and was therefore independent of the Fall. Incarnation was, in his interpretation, the consummation of the original creative purpose of God, an aim in itself, and not merely a redemptive remedy for human failure.3 Honorius of Autun (d. 1152) was of the same conviction.4 The great doctors of the XHIth century, such as Alexander of Hales and Albert Magnus, admitted the idea of an Incarnation independent of the Fall as a most convenient solution of the problem.5 Duns Scotus (c. 1266-1308) elaborated the whole conception with great care and logical consistency. For him the Incarnation apart from the Fall was not merely a most convenient assumption, but rather an indispensable doctrinal presupposition. The Incarnation of the Son of God was for him the very reason of the whole Creation. Otherwise, he thought, this supreme action of God would have been something merely accidental or �occasional�. "Again, if the Fall were the cause of the predestination of Christ, it would follow that God�s greatest work was only occasional, for the glory of all will not be so intense as that of Christ, and it seems unreasonable to think that God would have foregone such a work because of Adam�s good deed, if he had not sinned." The whole question for Duns Scotus was precisely that of the order of Divine �predestination� or purpose, i.e. of the order of thoughts in the Divine counsel of Creation. Christ, the Incarnate, was the first object of the creative will of God, and it was for Christ�s sake that anything else had been created at all. "The Incarnation of Christ was not foreseen occasionally, but was viewed as an immediate end by God from eternity; thus, in speaking about things which are predestined, Christ in human nature was predestined before others, since He is nearer to an end." This order of �purposes� or �previsions� was, of course, just a logical one. The main emphasis of Duns Scotus was on the unconditional and primordial character of the Divine decree of the Incarnation, seen in the total perspective of Creation.6 Aquinas (1224-1274) also discussed the problem at considerable length. He saw the whole weight of the arguments in favor of the opinion that, even apart from the Fall, "nevertheless, God would have become incarnate," and he quoted the phrase of St. Augustine: "in the Incarnation of Christ, other things must be considered besides absolution from sin." (De Trinitate, XIII. 17). But Aquinas could not find, either in Scripture or in the Patristic writings, any definite witness to this Incarnation independent of the Fall, and therefore was inclined to believe that the Son of God would not have been incarnate if the first man did not sin: "Although God could have become incarnate without the existence of sin, it is nevertheless more appropriate to say that, if man had not sinned, God would not have become incarnate, since in Sacred Scripture the reason for the Incarnation is everywhere given as the sin of the first man." The unfathomable mystery of the Divine will can be comprehended by man only in so far as it is plainly attested in Holy Scripture, "only to the extent that [these things] are transmitted in Sacred Scripture," or, as Aquinas says in another place, "only in so far as we are informed by the authority of the saints, through whom God has revealed His will." Christ alone knows the right answer to this question: "The truth of the matter only He can know, Who was born and Who was offerred up, because He so willed."7 Bonaventura (1221-1274) suggested the same caution. Comparing the two opinions � one in favor of an Incarnation apart from the Fall and the other dependent on it, he concluded: "Both [opinions] excite the soul to devotion by different considerations: the first, however, more consonant with the judgment of reason; yet it appears that the second is more agreeable to the piety of faith." One should rely rather on the direct testimony of the Scriptures than on the arguments of human logic.8 On the whole, Duns Scotus was followed by the majority of theologians of the Franciscan order, and also by not a few outside it, as, for instance, by Dionysius Carthusianus, by Gabriel Biel, by John Wessel, and, in the time of the Council of Trent, by Giacomo Nachianti, Bishop of Chiozza (Jacobus Naclantus), and also by some of the early Reformers, for instance, by Andreas Osiander.9 This opinion was strongly opposed by others, and not only by the strict Thomists, and the whole problem was much discussed both by Roman Catholic and by Protestant theologians in the XVIIth century.10 Among the Roman Catholic champions of the absolute decree of the Incarnation one should mention especially Fran�ois de Sales and Malebranche. Malebranche strongly insisted on the meta-phycical necessity of the Incarnation, quite apart from the Fall, for otherwise, he contended, there would have been no adequate reason or purpose for the act of Creation itself.11 The controversy is still going on among Roman Catholic theologians, sometimes with excessive heat and vigor, and the question is not settled.12 Among the Anglicans, in the last century, Bishop Wescott strongly pleaded for the �absolute motive�, in his admirable essay on "The Gospel of Creation."13 The late Father Sergii Bulgakov was strongly in favor of the opinion that the Incarnation should be regarded as an absolute decree of God, prior to the catastrophe of the Fall.14


III.

In the course of this age-long discussion a constant appeal has been made to the testimony of the Fathers. Strangely enough, the most important item has been overlooked in this anthology of quotations. Since the question of the motive of the Incarnation was never formally raised in the Patristic age, most of the texts used in the later discussions could not provide any direct guidance.15 St. Maximus the Confessor (580-662) seems to be the only Father who was directly concerned with the problem, although not in the same setting as the later theologians in the West. He stated plainly that the Incarnation should be regarded as an absolute and primary purpose of God in the act of Creation. The nature of the Incarnation, of this union of the Divine majesty with human frailty, is indeed an unfathomable mystery, but we can at least grasp the reason and the purpose of this supreme mystery, its logos and skopos. And this original reason, or the ultimate purpose, was, in the opinion of St. Maximus, precisely the Incarnation itself and then our own incorporation into the Body of the Incarnate One. The phrasing of St. Maximus is straight and clear. The 60th questio ad Thalassium, is a commentary on I Peter, 1:19-20: "[Christ was] like a blameless and spotless lamb, who was foreordained from the foundation of the world." Now the question is: St. Maximus first briefly summarizes the true teaching about the Person of Christ, and then proceeds: "This is the blessed end, on account of which everything was created. This is the Divine purpose, which was thought of before the beginning of Creation, and which we call an intended fulfillment. All creation exists on account of this fulfillment and yet the fulfillment itself exists because of nothing that was created. Since God had this end in full view, he produced the natures of things. This is truly the fulfillment of Providence and of planning. Through this there is a recapitulation to God of those created by Him. This is the mystery circumscribing all ages, the awesome plan of God, super-infinite and infinitely pre-existing the ages. The Messenger, who is in essence Himself the Word of God, became man on account of this fulfillment. And it may be said that it was He Himself Who restored the manifest innermost depths of the goodness handed down by the Father; and He revealed the fulfillment in Himself, by which creation has won the beginning of true existence. For on account of Christ, that is to say the mystery concerning Christ, all time and that which is in time have found the beginning and the end of their existence in Christ. For before time there was secretly purposed a union of the ages, of the determined and the Indeterminate, of the measurable and the Immeasurable, of the finite and Infinity, of the creation and the Creator, of motion and rest � a union which was made manifest in Christ during these last times." (M., P.G., XC, 621, A-B.) One has to distinguish most carefully between the eternal being of the Logos, in the bosom of the Holy Trinity, and the �economy� of His Incarnation. �Prevision� is related precisely to the Incarnation: "Therefore Christ was foreknown, not as He was according to His own nature, but as he later appeared incarnate for our sake in accordance with the final economy." (M., P.G., XC, 624D). The �absolute predestination� of Christ is alluded to with full clarity.16 This conviction was in full agreement with the general tenor of the theological system of St. Maximus, and he returns to the problem on many occasions, both in his answers to Thalassius and in his Ambigua. For instance, in connection with Ephesians 1:9, St. Maximus says: "[By this Incarnation and by our age] he has shown us for what purpose we were made and the greatest good will be of God towards us before the ages." (M., P.G., 1097C). By his very constitution man anticipates in himself "the great mystery of the Divine purpose," the ultimate consummation of all things in God. The whole history of Divine Providence is for St. Maximus divided into two great periods: the first culminates in the Incarnation of the Logos and is the story of Divine condescension ("through the Incarnation"); the second is the story of human ascension into the glory of deification, an extension, as it were, of the Incarnation to the whole creation. "Therefore we may divide time into two parts according to its design, and we may distinguish both the ages pertaining to the mystery of the Incarnation of the Divine, and the ages concerning the deification of the human by grace� and to say it concisely: both those ages which concern the descent of God to men, and those which have begun the ascent of men to God� Or, to say it even better, the beginning, the middle, and the end of all the ages, those which have gone by, those of the present time, and those which are yet to come, is our Lord Jesus Christ." (M., P.G., XC, 320, B-C). The ultimate consummation is linked in the vision of St. Maximus with the primordial creative will and purpose of God, and therefore his whole conception is strictly �theocentric�, and at the same time �Christocentric�. In no sense, however, does this obscure the sad reality of sin, of the utter misery of sinful existence. The great stress is always laid by St. Maximus on the conversion and cleansing of the human will, on the struggle with passions and with evil. But he views the tragedy of the Fall and the apostasy of the created in the wider perspective of the original plan of Creation.17


IV.

What is the actual weight of the witness of St. Maximus ? Was it more than his �private opinion,� and what is the authority of such Opinions�? It is perfectly clear that to the question of the first or ultimate �motive� of the Incarnation no more than a �hypothetical� (or �convenient�) answer can be given. But many doctrinal statements are precisely such hypothetical statements or �theologoumena�.18 And it seems that the �hypothesis� of an Incarnation apart from the Fall is at least permissible in the system of Orthodox theology and fits well enough into the mainstream of Patristic teaching. An adequate answer to the question of the �motive� of the Incarnaion can be given only in the context of the general doctrine of Creation.




Notes and References

l. Epist. 101, ad Cledoniutn (M., P.G., 37, col. 118).

2. Bishop B. F. Westcott, "The Gospel of Creation," in The Epistles of St. John, The Greek Text with notes and essays, Third Edition. (Macmillan, 1892), p. 288.

8. Rupertus Tuitensis, De Gloria et honore Filii hominis super Matthaeum, lib. 13, (M., P.L., 148, col. 1628): "Here it is first proper to ask whether or not the Son of God, Whom this discourse concerns, would have become man, even if sin, on account of which all die, had not intervened. There is no doubt that He would not have become mortal and assumed a mortal body if sin had not occurred and caused man to become mortal; only an infidel could be ignorant as to this. The question is: would this have occurred, and would it somehow have been necessary for mankind that God become man, the Head and King of all, as He now is? What will be the answer?" Rupert then quotes from St. Augustine about the eternal predestination of the saints (De Civitate Dei, 14. 23.) and continues: "Since, with regard to the saints and all the elect there is no doubt but that they will all be found, up to the number appointed in God's plan, about which He says in blessing, before sin, 'Increase and multiply,' and it is absurd to think that sin was necessary in order to obtain that number, what must be thought about the very Head and King of all the elect, angels and men, but that He had indeed no necessary cause for becoming man, but that His love's 'delights were to be with the children of men.' [Proverbs 8:31]" Cf. also De Glorificatione Trinitatis, lib. 3. 20 (M., P.L., 169, col. 72): "Therefore, we say quite probably, not so much that man [was made] to make up the number of the angels [i.e., for those who had fallen], but that both angels and men were made because of one man, Jesus Christ, so that, as He Himself was begotten God from God, and was to be found a man, He would have a family prepared on both sides. .. From the beginning, before God made anything, it was in His plan that the Word {Logos} of God, God the Word [Logos], would be made flesh, and dwell among men with great love and the deepest humility, which are His true delights." (Allusion again to Proverbs 8:31.)

4. Honorius of Autun, Libellus octo quaestionum de angelis et homine, cap. 2 (Μ., P.L., 172, col. 72): "And therefore the first man's sin was not the cause of Christ's Incarnation; rather, it was the cause of death and damnation. The cause of Christ's Incarnation was the predestination of human deification. It was indeed predestined by God from all eternity that man would be deified, for the Lord said, 'Father, Thou hast loved them* before the creation of the world,' [cf. John 17:24] those, that is, who are deified through Me... It was necessary, therefore, for Him to become incarnate, so that man could be deified, and thus it does not follow that sin was the cause of His Incarnation, but it follows all the more logically that sin could not alter God's plan for deifying man; since in fact both the authority of Sacred Scripture and clear reason declare that God would have assumed man even had man never sinned. [*S. Script., Jn. 17:24, reads 'me' for 'them'."]

5. Alexander Halensis, Summa tkeologica, ed. ad. Claras Aquas, dist. 3, qu. 3, m. 3; Albertus Magnus, In 3, 1. Sententiarum, dist. 20, art. 4, ed. Borgnet, t. 28, 361: "On this question it must be said that the solution is uncertain, but insofar as I can express an opinion, I believe that the Son of God would have been made man, even if sin had never been."

6. Duns Scotus, Opus Oxoniense, 3, dist. 19, ed. Wadding, t. 7, p. 415. Cf. Reportata Parisiensia, lib. 3, dist. 7, qu. 4, schol. 2, ed. Wadding, t. 11. 1, p. 451. "I say, nevertheless, that the Fall is not the cause of Christ's predestination. Indeed, even if one angel had not fallen, or one man, Christ would still have been predestined thus�even if others had not been created, but only Christ. This I demonstrate thus: anyone who wills methodically first wills an end, and then more immediately, those things which are more immediate to the end. But God wills most methodically; therefore, He wills thus: first He wills Himself, and everything intrinsic to Himself; more directly, so far as concerns things extrinsic, is the soul of Christ. Therefore, in relation to whatever merit and before whatever dement was foreseen, He foresees that Christ must be united to Him in a substantial union... The disposition and predestination is first complete concerning the elect, and then something is done concerning the reprobate, as a secondary act, lest anyone rejoice as if the loss of another was a reward for himself; therefore, before the foreseen Fall, and before any demerit, the whole process concerning Christ was foreseen... Therefore, I say thus: first, God loves Himself; second, He loves Himself by others, and this love of His is pure; third, He wills that He be loved by another, one who can love Him to the highest degree (in speaking about the love of someone extrinsic); fourth, He foresees the union of that nature which ought to love Him to the highest degree, although none had fallen [i.e., even if no one had fallen] ... and, therefore, in the fifth instance, He sees a coming mediator who will suffer and redeem His people; He would not have come as a mediator, to suffer and to redeem, unless someone had first sinned, unless the glory of the flesh had become swelled with pride, unless something needed to be redeemed; otherwise, He would have immediately been the whole Christ glorified." The same reasoning is in the Opus Oxoniensey dist. 7, qu. 3, scholium 3, Wadding 202. See P. Raymond, "Duns Scot," in Dictionnaire de la Theologie Catholique, t.4, col. 1890-1891, and his article, "Le Motif de l'lncarnation: Duns Scot et l'ficole scotiste," in Etudes Franciscaines (1912); also R. ieeberg, Die Tbeologie des Johannes Duns Scotus (Leipzig, 1900), s. 250.

7. Summa theol, 3a, qu. 1, art. 3; in 3 Sentent., dist. 1, qu. 1, art. 3.

8. Bonaventura, in 3 Sentent., dist. 1, qu. 2, ed. Lugduni (1668), pp. 10-12.

9. Cf. A. Michele, "Incarnation," in Dictionnaire de la Theologie Catholique, t. 7, col. 1495 ss. John Wessel, De causis Incarnationis, lib. 2, c. 7, quoted by G. Ullman, Die Reformatoren vor der Reformation, Bd. 2 (Gotha, 1866), s. 398 ff. On Naclantus see Westcott, op. cit., p. 312 ff. Andreas Osiander, An Filius Dei fuit incarnatus, si peccatum non inter-vents set in mundum? Item de imagine Dei quid sit? Ex cert is et evidentibus S. Scripturae testimoniis et non ex philosophicis et humanae rationis cogitationibus derompta explicatio (Monte Regia Prussiae, 1550); see I. A. Dorner, Entivicklun gsgeschichte der Lehre von der Person Christi, 2 Aufl. (1853), Bd. 2, s. 438 ff. and 584; Otto Ritschl, Dogmengeschichte des Protestantismus, Bd. 2 (Leipzig, 1912), s. 462. Osiander was vigorously criticized by Calvin, Institutio, lib. 2, cap. 12, 4-7, ed. Tholuck, 1, s. 304-309.

10. See for instance the long discussion in "Dogmata Theologica" of L. Thomassin (1619-1695) in tomus 3, De Incamatione Verbi Dei, 2, cap 5 to 11, ed. nova (Parisiis, 1866), pp. 189-249. Thomassin dismisses the Scotist theory as just a "hallucination," contradicted openly by the evidence of Scripture and the teaching of the Fathers. He gives a long list of Patristic passages, mainly from St. Augustine. Bellarmin (1542-1621) dismisses this idea in one phrase: "For if Adam had remained in that innocence wherein he had been created, doubtless the Son of God would not have suffered; He probably would not even have assumed human flesh, as even Calvin himself teaches"; De Christo, lib. 5, cap. 10, editio prima Romana (Romae, 1832), t. 1, p. 432. Petavius (1583-1652) was little interested in the controversy: "This question is widely and very contentiously disputed in the schools, but, being removed from the controversy, we will explain it in a few words." There is no evidence for this conception in Tradition, and Petavius gives some few quotations to the opposite effect. "Opus de Theologicis Dogmatibus," tomus 4, De Incamatione, lib. 2, cap. 17, 7-12, ed. (Venetiis, 1757), pp. 95-96. On the Protestant side see a brief discussion in John Gerhard, Loci Theologici, Locus Quartus, "De Persona et Officio Christi," cap. 7, with valuable references to the earlier literature and an interesting set of Patristic quotations; ed. Sd. Preuss (Berolini, 1863), t. 1, pp. 513-514, and a longer one in J. A. Quenstedt, Theologia Didactico�Polemica, sive $y sterna Theologicum (Wittebergae, 1961), Pars 3 & 4, Pars 3, Cap. 3, Membrum 1, Sectio 1, Quaestio 1, pp. 108-116. On the other hand, Suarez (1548-1617) advocated a recon-ciliatory view in which both conflicting opinions could be kept together. See his comments on Summa, 3a, Disput. 4, sectio 12, and the whole Disp. 5a, Opera Omnia, ed. Berton (Parisiis, I860), pp. 186-266.

11. Frangois de Sales, Traite de Vamour de Dieu, Iivre 2, ch. 4 and 5, in Oeuvres, edition complete, t. 4 (Annecy, 1894), pp. 99ss. and 102ss. Malebranche, Entretiens sur la Metaphysique et sur la Religion, Edition critique par Armand Cuvillier (Paris, 1948), tome 2, Entretien 9, 6, p. 14: "Oui assurement l'lncarnation du Verbe est le premier et le principal des desseins de Dieu; c'est ce qui justifie sa conduite"; Traite de la Nature et de la Grace (Rotterdam, 1712), Discours 1, 1, p. 2. Seconde Eclaircissement, p. 3O2ss.; Reflexions sur la Promotion Physique (Paris, 1715), p. 300: "II suit evidemment, ce me semble, de ce que je viens de dire, que le premier et le principal dessein de Dieu dans la creation, est 1'Incarnation du Verbe: puisque Jesus Christ est le premier en toutes choses. . . et qu'ainsi, quand 1'homme n'aurait point peche, le Verbe se serait incarne"; cf. p. 211 and passim. See for further information: J. Vidgrain, Le Christianisme dans la philosophie de Maleranche (Paris, 1923), pp. 99ss. and 112ss; H. Gouhier, La Philosophie de Malebranche et son Experience Religieuse (Paris, 1926), p. 22ss.; J. Maydieu, "La Creation du Monde et 1'Incarnation du Verbe dans la Philosophie de Malebranche," in Bulletin de Litterature Ecclesiastique (Toulouse, 1935). It is of interest to mention that Leibniz also regarded the Incarnation as an absolute purpose in creation; see quotations from his unpublished papers in J. Baruzi, Leibniz et I Organization religieuse de la Terre (Paris, 1907), pp. 273-274.

12. The Scotist point of view has been presented by a Franciscan, Father Chrysostome, in his two books: Christus Alpha et Omega, seu de Christi universali regno (Lille, 1910, published without the name of the author) and Le Motif de 1'Incarnation et les principaux thomistes contemporains (Tours, 1921). The latter was a reply to the critics in which he assembled an impressive array of Patristic texts. The Thomist point of view was taken by Father E. Hogon, Le Mystere de Vlncarnation (Paris, 1913), p. 63ss., and Father Paul Galtier, S. J. De Incarnatione et Redemptione (Parisiis, 1926); see also Father Hilair de Paris, Cur Deus Homo? Dissertario de motivo Incarnationis (Lyons, 1867) [includes an analysis of Patristic texts from the Thomist point of view]. Cf. also the introduction in the book of Dr. Aloysius Spindler, Cur Verbum, caro factum? Das Motiv der Menschiverdung und das Verhaltnis der Erlosung zur Menschwerdung in den christologischen Glaubenskdmpfen des vierten und funten christlichen Jahrhunderts (Paderborn, 1938) ['Torschungen zur christlichen Literatur� und Dogmengeschichte," hsgg. von A. Ehrhard und Dr. J. P. Kirsch, Bd. 18, 2 Heft].

13. See note 1 above.

14. Fr. Sergii Bulgakov, Agnets Bozhii (Paris, 1933), p. 191 ff. (in Russian). French translation, Du Verbe Incarne (Paris, 1943).

15. Dr. Spindler was the only student of the problem using the proper historical method in handling the texts.

16. Cf. Hans Urs von Balthasar, Liturgie Cosmique: Maxime le Confesseur (Paris, Aubier, 1947), pp. 204-205; Father Balthasar quotes Qu. ad Talass. 60 and adds that St. Maximus would have taken the Scotist side in the scholastic controversy, yet with an important qualification: "Maxime de reste est totalement etranger au postulat de ce debat scholastique qui imagine la possibilite d'un autre ordre du monde sans pecho et totalement irreel. Pour lui la 'volonte preexistante' de Dieu est identique au monde des 'idees' et des 'possibles': l'ordre des essences et l'ordre des faits coincident en ce point supreme" (in the German edition, Kosmische Liturgie, s. 267-268). See also Dom Polycarp Sherwood, O.S.B., "The Earlier Ambigua of Saint Maximus the Confessor" in Studia Anselmiana (Romae, 1955), fasc. 36, ch. 4, pp. 155ff.

17. The best exposition of the theology of St. Maximus is by S. L. Epifanovich, St. Maximus the Confessor and Byzantine Theology (Kiev, 1915; in Russian); cf. also the chapter on St. Maximus in my book, The Byzantine Fathers (Paris, 1933), pp. 200-227 (in Russian). In addition to the book of Father von Balthasar, quoted above, one may consult with profit the "Introduction" of Dom Polycarp Sherwood to his translation of The Four Centuries on Charity of St. Maximus, Ancient Christian Writers, No. 21 (London and Westminster, Md., 1955). See also Lars Thunberg, Microcosm and Mediator: The Theological Anthropology of Maximus the Confessor (Lund, 1965).

18. See the definition of "theologoumena" by Bolotov, Thesen iiber das "Filioque," first published without the name of the author ("von einem russischen Theologen") in Revue Internationale de Thiologie, No. 24 (Oct.-Dec, 1898), p. 682: "Man kann fragen, was ich unter Theologou-menon verstehe? Seinem Wesen nach ist es auch eine theologische Meinung, aber eine theologische Meinung derer, welche fiir einen jeden 'Katholiken' mehr bedeuten als gewohnliche Theologen; es sind die theologische Meinungen der hi. Vater der einen ungeteilten Kirche; es sind die Meinungen der Manner, unter denen auch die mit Recht hoi didaskaloi tes oikoumenes genannten sich befinden." No "theologoumenon" can claim more than "probability," and no "theologoumenon" should be accepted if it has been clearly disavowed by an authoritative or "dogmatic" pronouncement of the Church.




Missionary Leaflet # E095i

Copyright � 2005 Holy Trinity Orthodox Mission

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Editor: Bishop Alexander (Mileant)




(voploschenie_florovsky_e.doc, 05-18-2005)

#31014 12/08/05 07:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,790
Member
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
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Does that mean you're not an Orthodox apologist? biggrin
And Garrett, to back up, while it is true that the SSPX is officially not sedevacantist it is also true that there are many people associated with them who hold this as a private opinion, or are open to speculation about it.
After all, their theological outlook does create a little problem, doesn't it? Like how the papacy can be in the hands of heretics for forty years, when Christ promised the gates of hell would not prevail?
There are lots of convoluted solutions to this dilemma, and not a few SSPXers have become Orthodox, becoming the most anti-Catholic type of Orthodox...They go from believing that only Catholics can be saved to believing that only Orthodox may be saved. It seems part of the psychological makeup to need to belong to the remnant, the chosen few.
-Daniel

#31015 12/08/05 07:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,790
Member
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
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Oops; cross-posted before you posted that long one...I guess you are an Orthodox apologist..
-D

#31016 12/08/05 07:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 138
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 138
Well, remnant comments aside, even Catholics claim to be "Orthodox apologists"...

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