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Fr. Dcn. Lance,
You may very well be right! Frankly, I'll be surprised if this whole thing goes through given Bishop Williamson's strange comment that he doesn't think the gas chambers of the Holocaust existed (note: this is NOT tantamount to denying the Holocaust; he seems to believe that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews were killed, not 6 million). Weirdo.
Anyway, not that I think it should derail the possibility of lifting the excommunications, but I would think it *would.* Especially given that the Holy Father so graciously takes into account what the Jews think about the internal affairs of the Church, even though the intrusion is unwelcome.
Guess we'll see.
Alexis
Last edited by Logos - Alexis; 01/23/09 12:49 PM.
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Usually excommunications are lifted after repentant humility and admission of error or misjudgement. At least in Bishop Williamson's case, there has been not humility but adamant and open statements against the authority of Rome (and many other things, as Pavel has mentioned).
I would posit that lifting the excommunications without conditions would essentially seal the irregular status of the SSPX - they would now state no excommunication exists, so why should they submit to any other authority than their own bishops?
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A very good question Fr. Diak. Is this being reported accurately?
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Fr. Dcn. Diak said: Usually excommunications are lifted after repentant humility and admission of error or misjudgement. Did Patriarch Athenagoras show "repentant humility and admission of error or misjudgment" on the part of the Orthodox before Paul VI lifted the excommunication? Alexis
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Did Patriarch Athenagoras show "repentant humility and admission of error or misjudgment" on the part of the Orthodox before Paul VI lifted the excommunication?
Alexis ALEXIS: The mutual lifting of the excommunications didn't need to involve this at all. Even asking this question is inflammatory so I would ask you to refrain from this in the future. His Holiness, Pope Paul VI, didn't ask forgiveness from the EP either. If I'm not mistaken, both admitted that this event was a tragic mistake brought on by two men who had short fuses. Cardinal Humbert had no authority to level an excommunication since the Pope he represented had died in the time he traveled to Constantinople and returned. That means, as it does today, that he represented no one and his act lacked authority. So a sad event that probably wouldn't happen today with modern communication technology has brought on a 900+ year schism. And before anyone gets triumphalistic about it, we all need to hang our heads in shame that Christian brethren could treat each other so poorly and then let their positions harden over the years ensuing. BTW, the reference to our Orthodox brethren has no place here, given the title of this thread. In Christ, BOB
Last edited by theophan; 01/23/09 05:57 PM.
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Did Patriarch Athenagoras show "repentant humility and admission of error or misjudgment" on the part of the Orthodox before Paul VI lifted the excommunication?
Alexis Your question makes no sense since one cannot compare an internal Latin disciplinary affair and clear breaking of canons with a resulting ipso facto excommunication (as stated clearly in Ecclesia Dei - "...have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law.") with an essentially illicit personal action of Cardinal Humbert against a prelate over which he had no personal jurisdiction. Regardless of the gross dissimilarities, both Athenogoras and Pius VI asked mutual forgiveness; Bartolomeos and John Paul II did the same. I see no hand extended from the SSPX Bishops Four in the same way - not even close.
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My question, I think, does make sense, just not in the context of the prerequisites which you earlier specified. Fair enough.
The bottom line is, however desirable those attitudes might be (and I agree that they are), they are not necessary to the removal of/cancelling out of excommunications. I imagine if we were all Pope we would have many disparate ways of dealing with any number of things; I find it no surprise that it is the same in this regard. But Joseph Ratzinger is the Pope, and not you or I.
Alexis
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One stellar public example of the anti-Orthodox polemic from the SSPX is the (in)famous address of Fr. Schmidberger in Kansas City, at which I was physically present (and later walked out of): But you cannot compare those local Churches with the Orthodox Church; you cannot compare the Orthodox Church as if it were a true partial Church. That’s absurd, because the Orthodox, even if they have a valid Eucharist and a valid priesthood and apostolic succession, they have this apostolic succession only materially, not formally, because they are not linked to the pope. A statement, using Fr. Schmidberger's own term, that is absurd. One either HAS Apostolic succession or not. His clarification between "materially" and "formally" is not even sensible - but very relativistic. One either can or cannot demonstrate Apostolic Succession - it is a very objective thing. And neither are they (SSPX) anymore "linked to the pope" since 1988. And another: They are schismatics and even, to a certain point, heretics Which is it? How is one a heretic to "a certain point"? His statement about the Filioque reveals a frightening ignorance of the Cappadocians amongst many other things. And this is the man considered amongst most of the SSPX clergy to be their preeminent theologian. And he cannot even distinguish between "particular" and "partial". Here is the actual text he misquoted of Dominus Iesus : The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 It was not a transcription error - I was present, listening carefully and he most definitely said "partial", not "particular". http://www.sspx.org/discussions/fr_schimdbergers_talk.htm
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Diak,
I don't disagree with any of your points (I don't think). But this is precisely why the excommunications are apparently being removed: so the Vatican and the SSPX can resolve these doctrinal questions. They cannot be dealt with until the excommunications are nullified, it seems.
Alexis
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I agree the dialogue, then will be on the same footing as any other dialoge the Catholic Church has with any other church.
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My question is why? Why is reunion with these folks so important to Benedict? Yes, I know Christ's command for the Church to be united. But if reunion with the SSPX costs deterioration of relations between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church (or others [ foxnews.com]), what is the benefit? What is the benefit to reuniting with the SSPX (who are tiny in numbers), if it risks good relations with the Orthodox and others?
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As to the Orthodox, some of them have expressed great admiration for the Lefebvrists!
Fr. Serge
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http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/01/document-repealing-excommunications_24.htmlDecree of the Congregation for Bishops
CONGREGATIO PRO EPISCOPIS
By way of a letter of December 15, 2008 addressed to His Eminence Cardinal Dario Castrillón Hoyos, President of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, Mons. Bernard Fellay, also in the name of the other three Bishops consecrated on June 30, 1988, requested anew the removal of the latae sententiae excommunication formally declared with the Decree of the Prefect of this Congregation on July 1, 1988. In the aforementioned letter, Mons. Fellay affirms, among other things: "We are always firmly determined in our will to remain Catholic and to place all our efforts at the service of the Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is the Roman Catholic Church. We accept its teachings with filial disposition. We believe firmly in the Primacy of Peter and in its prerogatives, and for this the current situation makes us suffer so much."
His Holiness Benedict XVI - paternally sensitive to the spiritual unease manifested by the interested party due to the sanction of excommunication and trusting in the effort expressed by them in the aforementioned letter of not sparing any effort to deepen the necessary discussions with the Authority of the Holy See in the still open matters, so as to achieve shortly a full and satisfactory solution of the problem posed in the origin - decided to reconsider the canonical situation of Bishops Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson, and Alfonso de Galarreta, arisen with their episcopal consecration.
With this act, it is desired to consolidate the reciprocal relations of confidence and to intensify and grant stability to the relationship of the Fraternity of Saint Pius X with this Apostolic See. This gift of peace, at the end of the Christmas celebrations, is also intended to be a sign to promote unity in the charity of the universal Church and to try to vanquish the scandal of division.
It is hoped that this step be followed by the prompt accomplishment of full communion with the Church of the entire Fraternity of Saint Pius X, thus testifying true fidelity and true recognition of the Magisterium and of the authority of the Pope with the proof of visible unity.
Based in the faculty expressly granted to me by the Holy Father Benedict XVI, in virtue of the present Decree, I remit of Bishops Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson, and Alfonso de Galarreta the censure of latae sententiae excommunication declared by this Congregation on July 1, 1988, while I declare deprived of any juridical effect, from the present date, the Decree emanated at that time.
Rome, from the Congregation for Bishops, January 21, 2009.
Card. Giovanni Battista Re
Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops
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The response of the SSPX: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/01/document-repealing-excommunications_24.htmlPress release
of the Superior General of the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X
The excommunication of the bishops consecrated by His Grace Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, on June 30, 1988, which had been declared by the Congregation for Bishops in a decree dated July 1, 1988, and which we had always contested, has been withdrawn by another decree mandated by Benedict XVI and issued by the same Congregation on January 21, 2009.
We express our filial gratitude to the Holy Father for this gesture which, beyond the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X, will benefit the whole Church. Our Society wishes to be always more able to help the pope to remedy the unprecedented crisis which presently shakes the Catholic world, and which Pope John Paul II had designated as a state of “silent apostasy.”
Besides our gratitude towards the Holy Father and towards all those who helped him to make this courageous act, we are pleased that the decree of January 21 considers as necessary “talks” with the Holy See, talks which will enable the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X to explain the fundamental doctrinal reasons which it believes to be at the origin of the present difficulties of the Church.
In this new atmosphere, we have the firm hope to obtain soon the recognition of the rights of Catholic Tradition
Menzingen, January 24, 2009
+Bernard Fellay See also: http://www.dici.org/dl/fichiers/Letter_Sup_Gen.pdf
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Now that the news is official, may I request this be moved into the Church News Forum?
Alexis
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