www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Excommunication of SSPX Bishops are lifted

Memo,

Thanks for explaining! I knew the "universal jurisdiction" aspect, but all the times I have read that excerpt from Pastor Aeternus, I didn't consider the liturgical aspect, I suppose.

So, theoretically speaking, if the Pope were to re-write the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom as, say, the Barney theme song, it would be valid and licit and no one could rightfully object?

Alexis

Of course it would be neither valid nor licit and people could and would rightfully object. The Pope has no authority to re-write the Bible, throw out the basic structure of the Church, overturn the Church's Liturgy, and so forth. Read the accounts of the development of Pastor Aeternus at Vatican I and Lumen Gentium at Vatican II.

John Paul II himself taught that the Pope has no authority to allow for priestesses.

Fr. Serge

Then that seems to steer us toward my real question, which I assume many have already deduced: how much change in the Liturgy of the Church is unacceptable? Is the re-writing of a liturgy, like Bugnini and his fellow liturgists did, to the point of being unacceptable/illicit...even invalid?

I suppose not, but my point is that perhaps the SSPX feels this way, and there can be a healthy debate as to the merits of each argument without dismissing them as heretics out of hand.

Does that make sense to no one but myself? It wouldn't be the first time on this Forum, but that's how I see it, anyway.

Alexis

So by what authority was the pauline mass created?


So valid and licit = infallible?

I am astounded that my attempt at congratulating Pope Benedict on his forthrightness on his beliefs and lack of ambiguity, is construed as "mean-spirited" and "fundamentally uncharitable". Deacon, did you actually READ my post?

Alexandr

Alexandr,

Here is the original post:



I read the sentences following "i.e." as describing your view of the approach of Pope John Paul. If that was not your intention, I apologize, but the structure of the paragraph was a bit confusing.

Clearly I have no issue with the praise you offer to Pope Benedict. I actually agree with you on the clarity.

God bless,

Fr. Deacon Daniel

Ah, my apologies Deacon Daniel. I can now see how my words could have been misconstrued. Ah, the joys of bilingual thinking!

Seriously,though, as Latin Catholic so aptly pointed out, serious ecumenical talks can only take place when those involved say what they mean and mean what they say. Political correctness has been the cancer of the modern age. If we truly love each other, we need to speak the truth, which can hurt, but hem-hawing and speaking ambiguously will hurt more in the long term. Pope Benedict's frankness is much appreciated and as Patriarch of the West, is doing much to turn around the liberalness of the past 50 years. May the new Patriarch of the East be so forthright in his beliefs.

Alexandr

Amen!

I can easily think of any number of things that are both valid and licit, but are scarcely infallible (my parents' marriage, for example). Infallibility cannot make a falsehood true, or a truth false.

Nobody is likely to call me a Bugnini enthusiast. But by the generally accepted standards of the Catholic Church the Pauline Missal is both valid and licit, although unfortunate. The 1552 version of the Book of Common Prayer is unfortunate, ilicit, and invalid (and was never authorized by any agency of the Catholic Church).

Fr. Serge

Going back to an earlier point regarding the bishop who is a holocaust denier, this article was published a little while ago regarding the pontiff's reaction to the statements made. Apparently this issue is also of concern to the Vatican.

BBC news article [news.bbc.co.uk]

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I looked into the "clarification" by Deacon John Montalvo a bit more and found this on the Vatican web site:
[quote]Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing[/quote]
This is Pius XII in [url=http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html]Humani Generis[/url] 1950.
The footnote refers to Pius XII Mystici Corporis Christi, which in turn refers to Vatican I (see my post on page 6). So Pius XII seems to be teaching that the holy, catholic, apostolic and Roman Church described by dogmatic Vatican I is the Roman Catholic Church.
It would not surprise me if some SSPX document quotes this teaching of Pius XII.
Is there any record of Eastern Rite Catholic bishops protesting about this teaching in Humani Generis in the 1950's?
If not I can only assume that at the time they were happy to consider themselves as "Roman Catholics using a non-Roman rite approved by Rome" or something like that?

Both Bishop Fellay, Superior of the Society, and Fr. Schmidberger, the Superior of the German DIstrict of the Society, have likewise distanced themselves and the SSPX from Bishop Williamson's thoughtless comments (which I still don't think add up to a denial of the Holocaust).

Alexis

Rest of the story:

http://www.zenit.org/article-24930?l=english

Amado

That's as may be - but for many people the damge has been done , and they will not forget Bp Williamson's denials that there were gas chambers in use .

There are many many people whose relatives died in these ' non-existent gas chambers ' - and they will be very very sad at this denial

It is, indeed, unfortunate that that interview of Bp. Williamson in November (2008) was re-aired at the time the Pope lifted the SSPX excommunications.

However, his denial of the holocaust is his personal opinion and it does not bind the Catholic Church.

The solemn and official position of the Church is enshrined in the Vatican II document "Nostra Aetate," which deplores any type of anti-Semitism.

Now that his excommunication is lifted, let's see what Bp. Williamson will do about his personal opinion on the holocaust.

He has to accept the decrees of Vatican II and the teachings of the Popes and the magisterium to achieve full communion with the Catholic Church!

Amado