www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall President Obama

Thank you ! I need all the prayers that I can get.

And just for the record: I think abortion is a sin.

Now, this thread is supposedly about the Obama administration. So, as someone who voted for the Obama administration, let me tell you how he won. Barack Obama was the Ronald Reagan of his generation. He was the Great Communicator. He shared a compelling vision of America and its future. He did so with eloquence, occasionally with wit, often with humor, and always with substance that was appealing to people: because he talked about the needs of ordinary people's lives with genuine compassion and a record of service.

My friends, I'm not trying to be a stinker.

I'm trying to analyze how to win: socially, politically.

If you want to win people's hearts and minds and votes, you have to show them --convincingly-- that you care about them and their needs. Most of them are already born. So, you have to show them, convincingly, that you care about their needs outside of their mother's wombs.

Now, as Stivvy and others have mentioned, many of you are involved in works of charity. God bless you. I mean that. But in politics --indeed, in much of life-- appearance is more important than reality.

So, when people go on and on with anger bordering on obsession over abortion, they are giving the appearance that is what matters to them most. And that, in turn, is unappealing or even repellant to those who do not share that view.

Here is my humble suggestion:

Pro-Life America needs to rediscover the dignity and needs of human life throughout the human lifespan. Cardinal Bernadin, eternal memory, was against abortion and for social justice -- equally. He taught a consistent ethic of life: that human life is a seamless garb from conception till natural death, and that it must be treasured and served in all of its needs throughout the human lifespan. That mindset, attitude and vision need to be rediscovered, with vigor, publicly, by Pro-Life America. In that way, the rest of America will see that you are truly pro-life and not just for one stage of life. And then, the rest of America might be willing to be persuaded to your point of view.

humbly,

-- John

Q. 1. How many sins cry out to Heaven for vengeance?

A. There are five sins that cry out to Heaven for vengeance.

Q. 2. What are they?

A. Based on # 1867 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, there are:

(1) Wilful murder - the blood of Abel, [Gen. 4:10]

(2) The sin of the Sodomites, [Gen. 18:20; 19:13]

(3) The cry of the people oppressed in Egypt, [Ex. 3:7-10]

(4) The cry of the foreigner, the widow and the orphan, [Ex. 20:20-22] and

(5) Injustice to the wage earner. [Deut. 24:14-5; Jas. 5:4]

The Catholic Church is against all 5 and has always been. The current administration seems to be against 2 and seems to condone 3 of the sins.

Dr. Eric,

It seems clear to me that the current administration not only condones all 5 sins that cry out to Heaven for vengeance, but positively advocates all 5 sins as a 'good'. They might falsely claim to be against 2 of the sins, but there is no greater injustice that to steal money from the wage earner in order to oppress people world wide by slaughtering the unborn and spreading a culture of death.

The future of the human species is at stake. The current administration is thoroughly anti-human. They must be opposed in all aspects of government because any highway they build or political success that they may achieve gives them the power to work their inhuman evil.

Unless the world is to be governed by saintly Christian monarchies, we must reject all forms of socialism and embrace radical and even anarchist political and economic freedom. We cannot let our lives be dictated by some bureaucrat with an unknown and perhaps evil agenda.

Socialism is a parasite on the Christian ethic. It steals salvation from both the rich and the poor. Selfless giving and grateful reception builds a Christian community. How do we build a community if everyone is equally miserable with no hope for escape from the ‘system’? A rich man cannot sell everything and give it to the poor if the government has already stolen everything!

It is far better to be able to beg for charity in a society where an expensive medical treatment is freely available, than to have your wages stolen by the government for ‘healthcare’ and yet, in your hour of need, be turned away by a bureaucrat assigning queues and enforcing budget limits or even the absolute horror of judging your lifestyle or genetic disposition as the basis for treatment.

John is correct that people's minds aren't being changed on a massive scale. The issue is a black and white one; there isn't much gray; similar to the issues of women ordination, homosexuality, assisted suicide, human experimentation (embryonic stem cell), cloning, in the mid 1800's the issue of slavery and in the 1940's the annihilation of Jews.

In a materialistic and gnostic society there isn't a very good chance of a change. Even socialization like attempts to feed the poor and emotionally troubled won't succeed. Social projects aren't the answer; God has to soften their hearts and the Holy Spirit must convict them.

We can only assist by keeping the issue on peoples' minds until they have an epiphany. Showing pictures of butchered fetuses, of videos which graphically shows the coldness of destroying a defenseless baby may be the most effective way of shocking them into reality; of course if this is done we must be prepared for attacks that WE are cold and heartless, not them.

John, you still didn't say if the www.priestsforlife.org [priestsforlife.org] video was effective. I'm trying to find something that works; help me out, please.

To everyone-- Please let me know where I can get the anti-FOCA postcards.

God be with you,

Fr Deacon Paul

Making them illegal is a great start.

There are many wealthy and seemingly good intentioned people who have abortions.

You have gleaned wrongly. We are talking about the legalized murder of innocent children propigated by politicians and their constiuency.

I would gladly be accused of obsession if I could be a part of overturning Roe v Wade.

With all due respect, I think your conscience has been pricked. That is a good thing.
Hopefully, the Holy Spirit will persuade you and the millions like you.

Please do not confuse anger with a compassion and justice for the voiceless martyrs.

You forgot about obedience. Obedience to your Church. The Church which tells us of the intrinsic evil of abortion. Electing those who further that cause is an abomination!

I am completely pro-life. I am opposed to abortion, to infanticide, to suicide, to euthanasia, to unjust war, to torture, to unjust social and economic conditions, and to anything else that violates God's laws. I think that it would be a grave sin to vote for Obama if one was doing it because of his stance on abortion. I do not believe it is a sin to vote for Obama in spite of his support for abortion and both my parish priest (who is a holy monk) and my spiritual father have told me that it is not a sin to vote for Obama if we are not voting for his pro-abortion views.

Now, I would like to add a few facts that can be verified by anyone willing to do the research.

First, abortion has never been entirely illegal in the United States and, in fact, strict laws on abortion were a product of the 19th century. Abortion was generally legal during the period of the American founders. Also, in English common law abortion has also generally been legal for medical reasons.

Abortion was not uniformly outlawed in the Byzantine empire. Also, it was not uniformly outlawed in all places during the middle ages and, in fact, other grave vices such as prostitution, were generally legal. Aquinas even defends the legalization of prostitution as being prudent.

The early Church made a distinction between civil and ecclesiastical penalties. So, even in times and places were there were few or no civil penalties for abortion, there were always severe ecclesiastical penalties for abortion.

I also think that the massive increase in the numbers of abortions has more to do with the development of modern medical technology and the greater degree of economic and social freedom that women have today. Even if Roe v. Wade had not been made law, we would have seen dramatic increases in the numbers of abortions and we would likely see more liberalized abortion laws in most states. Most Americans are pro-choice and they favor abortion rights in certain circumstances.

I wish Roe v. Wade had not been decided in favor of abortion rights. In addition to being a morally repugnant decision, it was also a terrible legal decision. Had Roe v. Wade ruled the other way, abortion would still be basically legal in many states. But individual states would be allowed to enact their own restrictions. This is what should have happened, but it didn't.

The "party of life" itself has a very mixed record on life. Recluse I'm sorry but abortion is definitely not the only issue. Politics is about the art of the possible, not the ideal. I understand and I support all those who voted against Obama. But I also see how one could have voted for Obama for certain pragmatic reasons.

I think that the Churches should take a firm stance against abortion and should enact grave ecclesiastical penalties against church members who procur abortions or aid or promote abortion in any way. I do not think that it is wise for the Church to spend so much time on politics and voter's guides and the like. The purpose of the Gospel is not to create a Christian world. Christ said that His Kingdom was not of this world and I believe that Christendom fell precisely because the Church needed to be reminded that we are only sojourners in this life. When the Church ruled things society was not a culture of life. This promotion of a "culture of life" is rather new in Church history. When the Church was in power it supported a culture of brutality and torture and intolerance. That is why I think that secularization and the disenfranchisement of the Church are wonderful things. Instead of trying to create a "civilization of love," a New World Order or some kind of Christianist American state, we can get back to the business of preaching the Gospel and saving souls. Just my two cents.

Joe

And when we show our intense compassion for the murdered innocent ones, we are called angry and obsessive.

It is president Obama's pro-death stance that is appalling---and we must stand and fight.

Recluse,

I think you should stop trying to judge John's soul and conscience.

Joe

Brilliant post, Joe !

-- John

Please Joe--do not accuse me of passing judgement on someone's soul and conscience. I said that perhaps his conscience was pricked. The Catholic Church guides Her parishioners to support pro-life candidates. I am hopeful that ANYONE who supported this man to run the U.S.A. might examine their conscience one day.

It is not I who judge. It is Jesus Christ.

Me too.
I was told the opposite by a holy priest-monk. If you know that the candidate is pro-death, and you vote for him by justifying the vote based on other issues, then it is still a sin. No issue is as important as the life of those without a voice or a choice. We are called to speak for them.

I am sorry that you feel that way. One day it will be revealed to you.
What is pragmatic about supporting the murder of a child in the womb. Lord have mercy!

Do you claim to know better than the Church?

He also preached against murder and said, "Let the little children come to me".
Really?

Yes, really. For centuries the Church promoted the murder of heretics, "witches", and homosexuals. The Popes condoned torture and the medieval councils of the western Church promoted the ghetto-izing of the Jews. Whenever Christians have been in power, their record of building a culture of life has always been mixed; even when the Church had real state power.

This is why I actually tend to be Augustinian in my view of history and in church state relations. God established the order of law in order to restrain sin, not to make people virtuous. Only the Gospel can truly make people virtuous. Yes, abortion should be illegal in most (if not all) circumstances. But it is not a black and white issue. No society has ever truly been a "culture of life." All societies are cultures of death. And to engage in other kinds of death is just as evil as abortion. This world is passing and only the eternal kingdom will remain.

Joe

Most here are familiar with Church history--including the medieval period. Yes, people are sinners. But please tell me you are not trying to give excuses to the supporters of abortion by giving Church history lessons!

Yes it is. We should have compassion for those who have participated in this evil--and we should urge them to seek forgiveness. But we must also fight to reverse Roe v Wade.
We are all called to be a "culture of life".
All murder is evil. But nothing is as evil as abortion--the intentional murder of an innocent child in the womb. 50 million and counting. Let's stop the genocide.
Yes. And let's give our children a chance to live in both worlds.

I stand with Recluse.

CDL