www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News VATICAN TO CREATE NEW DIOCESES IN RUSSIA

Only in your mind, Kurt, would Stalin still "live."

Come to think of it, he was the darling of American Communists and their labor-union comrades.

FG

Alex,

You are right and I withdraw it. It was a silly response to a silly statement.

The bottom line on all of this is that the "rules" (or "canons") people think exist don't. All of these points have some merit, but not when taken to an absolute. Brendan brought me around to this thinking. When he posted "America is a melting pot nation..." making it canonically different than Russia, I started thinking "who made these rules? What universal authority decreed America was a melting pot nation and Russia was an Orthodox nation?"

Again, everyone has some basis for their position but it is simply horse hockey pucks to say "So it is, it is decreed, the father have spoken.

I, for one, am sympathetic to the MP sad situation. But I am convinced the route out is not dependent on any action or inaction on the Ctholic Church's part, but it is in the ROc's own hands.

K.

During the Communist oppression, at least 130 Russian Orthodox Church (ROC) bishops were murdered by the Stalinists; and at least 10,000 priests and thousands of monks and nuns and probably millions of simple Orthodox believers, were slaughtered.

These martryed souls were communicants of the Patriarchal Russian Orthoox Church, i.e., the Moscow Patriarchate a/k/a MP.

To associate these holy souls with a few (relative to the number of martyrs) apostate hierarchs and priests is truly a despicable act; for the Vatican to take advantage of the MP, which is only beginning to rebuild the Church after decades of persecution and the wholesale slaughter of her children, is equally despicable and speaks ill of the Vatican.

I suppose the Vatican's ecumenical policy ( relative to the Russian Church) must be "kick them while they're down."

Our ancestors were wiser than we are.

It is not too late for us to wake-up to reality.

FG

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Free Greek ]

Word from the news and from "the street' (the Russian-speaking Internet):

Catholic dioceses in Russia are "unfriendly act" - Moscow Patriarchate

MOSCOW. Feb 11 (Interfax) - The establishment of Catholic dioceses on the territory of Russia puts off a possible meeting between Patriarch of Moscow
and all Russia Alexy II and Pope John Paul II, spokesman for the Russian Orthodox Church Igor Vyzhanov has told Interfax.

He referred to the statement of Holy See press secretary Joaquin Navarro-Vals that the Vatican would upgrade the status of its institutions
in Russia.

The Moscow Patriarchate defines this intention as "an unfriendly action as regards the Russian Orthodox Church and a step that does not take into
account the Church's interests," Vyzhanov said. "Such matters should be discussed by the Churches instead of being fostered unilaterally."

"The development of a full-scale structure of the Catholic Church in Russia does not conform to the genuine clerical needs of the Vatican. It
aims at further missionary activities among the people of our country, which has never been Catholic," the Moscow Patriarchate said.

The Holy See plans to have four Catholic dioceses in Russia and to make head of Russia's Catholics Tadeusz Kondrusevich the Archbishop-
Metropolitan of Our Lady's Archdiocese in Moscow.

Meanwhile, even the ancient, undivided Church believed there could not be two bishops in one town. That principle was later defined as the
principle of canonical territory, Vyzhanov said.

As for the establishments of the Russian Orthodox Church in Catholic countries, he said, "our church communities abroad are made up of compatriots instead of foreigners, and we do not divide foreign countries into eparchies. For instance, the bishop who lives in Paris caters to
Russian believers in France, Italy and Spain." (Serge notes: I am not necessarily endorsing or trying to defend that last paragraph — simply quoting it.)

Response from P. Skovorodkin, Russia:

"Ни хуя себе, католическая ересь, столетями направлявшая и благословлявшая войны на уничтожение России прется со своей структурой в Россию ( с благословения либерастов ). То есть католики, религиозно подчиненные "непогрешимому папе", сидящему в Ватикане хотят подчинять ему же Россиян. Нахуй Ватикан из России.'

"&%$ yourself, Catholic heresy, for centuries directing and blessing wars for the destruction of Russia .... Catholics are religious subordinates to the "infallible pope", sitting in the Vatican wanting to subordinate Russians to him. *&#$ the Vatican from Russia.'

This is a very sad day for the cause of Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. Something to think about as US Byzantine Catholic Great Lent begins.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

National Socialism is as much a product of Catholicism as Soviet Communism is of Orthodoxy.

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: NDHoosier ]

Y'know, if it weren't for people like Serge, statements like this would incline me to say, "To hell with the Orthodox"...

Free Greek notes above: "To associate these holy souls with a few (relative to the number of martyrs) apostate hierarchs and priests is truly a despicable act; for the Vatican to take advantage of the MP, which is only beginning to rebuild the Church after decades of persecution and the wholesale slaughter of her children, is equally despicable and speaks ill of the Vatican."

Ouch. Totally unsupported by history. In the "Western Slavic" lands of Poland, parts of Byelo-Rus, Ukraine, the Czechkei, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Albania, parts of Bosnia/Herzegovina, parts of Bulgaria and also of Romania, the persecution of Christians involved in most cases the persecution of Catholics and Protestants (and 'believing' Orthodox) in the name of "Russia", the "Soviet State". And, as a result of the co-opting of some Russian Orthodox clergy, these church people were compromised and ended up either in Siberia or dead.

The remarkable thing was that the true Christians in the gulags and other 'camps' found each other and, dismissing any sort of jurisidictional baloney, supported and assisted in their mutual survival. Outside of the camps, however, the remnants of the RO church in RUSSIA survived; but some of the clergy were agents (and there is more than ample evidence of this). OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA, the forced annexing of Catholics (of whatever stripe) into "Russian Orthodoxy", (and the persecution of the Prots and others), left a real bad taste for Russia in the mouths of the non-Russian persecuted. And this 'bad taste' has carried over to Russian Orthodoxy in general. Although it may have been a machination of the KGB and their ilk, nonetheless the persecution is still associated with MP Russian Orthodoxy amongst the Ukrainians, et al.

To tell these erstwhile 'vassal nations' (like Estonia, Ukraine, Byelo-Rus, etc.) that they are part of the "Moscow Patriarchate territory" and cannot aspire to minor patriarchate status is like waving a red flag before a bull. And, if one is to be completely canonical about this, there is NO canonical reason (except self-proclamation) to give assent to Moscow's assertion that it is the "Third Rome". Orthodoxy has traditionally been supportive of ethnic patriarchates (Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Kiev [pre-Muscovy], Antioch, Albania, etc.); but now the erstwhile vassal states are told: "You are part of Moscow's territory, and if you attempt to move to independent status in Orthodoxy, we'll excommunicate you and anybody who supports you."

It appears to me that although Orthodoxy positively eschews the idea of a (Papal style) Primate, and that individual Churches should be independent of a "Pope", the fact seems to be that anybody in the Northern Slavonia is going to be subject to Moscow, come hell or high water.

Would that there was a consistent ecclesiology.

Blessings!

Thanks, NDHoosier.

To tell these erstwhile 'vassal nations' (like Estonia, Ukraine, Byelo-Rus, etc.) that they are part of the "Moscow Patriarchate territory" and cannot aspire to minor patriarchate status is like waving a red flag before a bull.

Estonia: a Lutheran country like Finland. The Orthodox population there is largely Russian. Patriarch Alexis II is from Estonia (born there).

Ukraine: 'Nuff said. Setting up a rival Rus' "little Orthodoxy' based in Kiev/Kyiv to compete with Moscow in Ukraine — and in Russia — seems to be the dream of some Catholic expansionists contra Balamand. As I have written before, such a new Church may be holy and orthodox, but a bad move for Church relations in the long run.

Byelorussia/Belarus: like much of Ukraine a Russian-speaking land — more so, in fact, which is why Russian has been re-established as an official language. Seeking closer ties and possible reunion with Russia. The metropolia of Minsk, part of the Moscow Patriarchate, is the Church there.

http://oldworldrus.com

Totally supported by history:

ROC/MP martyrs

At least 130 bishops

At least 10,000 priests and deacons

At least thousands of nuns and monks

At least millions of simple Orthodox Christians

(Bishop Kallistos Ware)

It speaks ill of Catholics that they are obsessed with ignoring the martrydom of Orthodox Christians.

But within the Catholic scheme of things, there is really no place for non-Catholics. You share this ideology with your Muslim co-religionists.

The Orthodox are forced to fight a war of survival on two fronts:

Against the Catholics.

Against the Muslims.

But this is not a new phenomenon for the True Believers.

Somehow, we always survive.

We shouldn't be surprised that the Catholic strategy in Russia is to take advantage of the True Believers as they struggle to resurrect the Holy Faith after decades of horrible oppression and suffering. As criminals have their modus operandi, so do the papists.

Just as legions of Catholic priests and bishops take advantage of the weakness of little boys, so the Vatican shall attempt to take advantage of the struggling Church of Russia. On both counts, this is the history of the Catholic Church and reveals the corruption and Satanic core of Catholicism.

This is the message the True Believers must preach to to the faithful.

It is time for us to---as the Greeks and Serbs say--marginalize those who would betray us to the Turks of our time---the papists. We know who they are. We are--once again--at war with the Turks and their collaborators.

Adio,

Free Greek ( and never a helot of the Turks and their papist lovers.)

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: Free Greek ]

Many think Orthodoxy is just another denomination or a brand of Christianity but if this were so, then you would also then have to admit that you are free to beleive in virtually anything you want. But we know this is just the cunning deceit of the demons. Orthodoxy is a state of being based on true belief unchanged as it was given to us by God demonstrated through a sacramental life in the His body, the Church.

Orthodoxy, the Church, is made up of many things. One can list dogmatic beliefs, one can speak of Holy Tradition, partaking of the Mysteries, and one can certainly look at adherence to Orthodox ecclesiastical canons, which speaks of a college of equal bishops.

Yet none of these things by themselves proves one is Orthodox and all of these things together only shows one might be Orthodox.

What is the profoundest characteristic of Orthodoxy, the quintessential characteristic of Orthodox piety, the sign of authentic Orthodoxy as well as a premise of the true faith?

It is a turning inward.

Orthodoxy is nothing but a thirsting for the Kingdom of Heaven, a search for the Kingdom of God and communion with the Persons of the Holy Trinity. But, “the Kingdom of God”, said the Lord, “is within you” (Lk.ll:21). The Kingdom of God is within us because we can meet God and come into communion with Him only inside of us, in our hearts.

So there is no other path to the Kingdom of God but the one which leads to our heart, the one which leads “within you”. It is the path of hesychasm. This hesychasm is the deepest characteristic of Orthodox life, the sign of orthodox genuineness, the premise of right thinking and of right belief and glory, the presupposition of faith and Orthodoxy. In all of the Church's external and internal battles, we had the hesychasts on one side defending Orthodoxy, and the anti-hesychasts on the other side fighting against it. The very fabric of heresy is anti-hesychastic. And above all, Papism and Protestantism are anti-hesychastic. And within Orthodoxy, those who were under heretical influence, little by little became anti-hesychastic, acquiring the anti-hesychastic spirit and inclinations. They became either outwardly oriented or intellectualists.

Temptation for Christians is not always animalistic. Most of the time it is very clever, or the devil would not have been called cunning. The call of the world is never sent naked but cloaked in the delusion of love. “Go save your brothers. Don't you see that they seek help?” And the Orthodox goes into the world or concerns himself with the world, and ceases to be a Orthodox. And once a Christian believes he will save and help people, he has become a victim of the evil one. None of us can help or save anyone. The only savior and helper is God. And once we lose this truth, we lose everything.

This is why I disagree with Dr. John in his above post, when he says we have bigger things to worry about. He says:

“I think it best if we remember that life is not just "Church"; it is everything that God's peoples need to do to ensure the collective well-being of everyone. Athens is drowning in sulphur-dioxide air pollution and the monuments are being eaten away every day; Ukraine has a massive needle-drug problem (heroin), and people are getting infected with HIV and Hepatitis C in large numbers; Russia has a serious alcohol and drug epidemic, and people are being starved because criminal elements are setting up their own "corporations" to control the black markets in food and clothing.”

So without the life and spirit, all of this is for naught. But if you remove even one of these things, and there are certainly more than I have listed, you have lost everything.

One criteria of being Orthodox that I have not said so far, is commemorating and following an Orthodox bishop. Christians cannot exist as individuals, but only as members of the Church through their bishop. Can I conduct a Divine Liturgy in my basement and partake of the Mysteries of Christ? No. It is essential therefore that we follow Orthodox bishops. It is also essential that these bishops have the Orthodox faith.

So, for any New Calendarist to say a Byzantine Catholic is not Orthodox, then they are hypocrites.

They must admit that a Byzantine Catholic has the Orthodox faith, they have the same liturgy, they pray the same prayers, so what reason could they give to say that a Byzantine Catholic is not Orthodox? They will say their bishops commemorate and commune with the pope. More specifically, they must base their entire allegation of the fact that BC bishops commune with the pope, who they would say is a heretic.

But don't they themselves commune and commemorate those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit, those who call Mohammed a prophet, those who say the Holy Fathers were not guided by the Holy Spirit and led the Church astray. Yes they commune with “bishops” who worship with animists and witch doctors, “bishops” who sign documents and recognize grace in the Latin Church, “bishops” who openly state that the pope's church and the Church are the same. Bishops who essentially believe the same as BC bishops, and although they do not commune, at least not openly, it is a formality that they yearn for. The Holy Spirit says through the canons of the Church that a bishop who is a heretic is so without any need of Synodical decisions.

These “new calendarists” have the same bishops as you, they have the same mentality of Church unity and administration, they have the same aptitude to overlook, deny, and twist all that the Holy Fathers have said about heretic bishops.

So what does any of this have to do with the original topic?

Well, "mainstream" Orthodoxy can teach the pope a few things about monarchy and "papal mentality". Constantinople has infringed on what would be called the canonical territory of Moscow more than once and has usurped many areas in a most grotesque way. They have multimillion dollar interests in many companies and continually try to impose it's hegomony in many areas for the sake of it's own power and prestige including outright persecution and imprisonment. Just like the EP. Quite uncanonical.

So if Orthodox Christians complain about the Vatican, and rightfully so, they should also complain as vigilantly about the MP.

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

My Brother, Free Greek,

You cross the line from poor taste to simple abuse to misrepresentation of the state of the Catholic Communion.

The latter parts of your posting might fit on another discussion list, but certainly such assertions do not belong here, in my opinion.

Steve
JOY!

FreeGreek,

Just come Home to Rome!

FYI, CNN is reporting this story:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/02/11/russia.church/index.html

VATICAN CITY -- The Vatican has angered the Russian Orthodox Church by creating the first four fully-fledged Catholic dioceses in Russia.

The home of the spritual leadership of the Roman Catholic church said it was upgrading four "apostolic administrations" -- Southern European Russia, Northern European Russia, Western Siberia and Eastern Siberia -- into four dioceses beneath "one ecclesiastical Province."

It said the move was the logical step in strengthening the religious structure for the estimated 1.3 million Catholics in Russia and shrugged off criticism from the Russian Orthodox Church that it was trying to steal converts.

The Vatican said freedom of religious worship was one of the fundamental underpinnings of democratic society.

The Russian Orthodox Church, whose consent is required for a long-desired papal trip to Russia, has strongly opposed the move, saying it was a violation of Church laws.

"We hope that the Orthodox believers in Russia understand," papal spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls told Italian television.

"With today's decision the Holy See is merely raising the organisation of the Russian Roman Catholic community to the same level as those in other parts of the world."

Last week the Vatican briefed Russian Orthodox officials about their plans.

The Orthodox Church responded on its Web site condemning the Vatican's moves as "violations of the canonical principles and norms of inter-Church relations."

The Vatican said on Monday the growing number of Catholic converts in Russia was not due to people converting from the Orthodox church and would not transform Russia's cultural identity.

The pope has made no secret of his desire to visit Moscow to push for unity between the Western and Eastern branches of Christianity which split in 1054.

Russian President Vladimir Putin favours a papal visit and is said to have been putting pressure on Russian Patriarch Alexiy II to consent.

But Alexiy has refused to even meet the Pope until an end to what he has called Catholic attempts to seek converts in Russia and other Orthodox states in the former Soviet Union.

Free Greek:

The Orthodox Church has its share of pedophiles:

www.pokrov.org [pokrov.org]

anastasios

Dear Friends,

To be fair, we must remember that the Orthodox Church is in a volatile situation in Russia.

There are many of those who are "unchurched" through years of the soviet experience.

In addition, the West and the Vatican is really rather ignorant of the way in which Church and nationality work in Russia and many formerly or still oppressed Orthodox countries.

One's national identity as such is bound up with one's membership in a Church.

And many people who would, if communism were not around, be in the Orthodox Church as Russians are not.

They can be rather easily swayed to go into the Catholic Church, the Protestant groups or Hare Krishna for that matter (I know for a fact that the sight of Hare Krishna youth in Russian and Ukrainian classrooms is not uncommon).

The people don't see the difference yet between religions. For them it is a matter of "religion" or "no religion."

This is why the strengthening of the RC church administration in Russia along the lines the Vatican is planning is, in the long term, bad for the Russian Church.

And the Vatican isn't a bunch of fools, they know what they are doing.

Pressure tactics on the Orthodox? You bet.

The RC Church should act as a "guest" in Russia, serving the needs of its RC members. It shouldn't yet feel itself to be a "constituent member" of the religious scene there.

Let's remember also that when groups of Portuguese and Spanish Catholics broke with Rome and asked the EP to be received, Rome cried "foul" and asked the EP not to on the grounds that this would be seen as an "Orthodox invasion" of Latin lands.

The EP agreed and opted for a "hands-off" approach.

Rome itself has a sense of what its "territory" is.

Under these circumstances, the Russian Patriarch is well within his rights to suspend all talks with Rome until such time as he feels this matter is ameliorated.

Alex