www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Common Easter date?

Then you should move to the Gregorian calendar. That "Pascha should not fall before jewish passover" is the ancient equivalent of an urban legend. Again, disinterested Orthodox scholars admit that the true reading and intent of Nicaea is to pay no attention to how the Jews determine and when they celebrate Passover. So this alleged proof is really an indictment against those who invoke it and, contrary to Nicaea, reference the Jewish dating of Passover as a factor.

Conceding for the common good as stated is an option. There is then uniformity in celebrating Pascha more often than not on a date different than specified by Nicaea. Eventually, as the date moves farther away from the norm specified by Nicaea, the statement will be that Pascha is never celebrated on the date mandated by the Council.

Again, the intent is to fix Pascha close to the vernal equinox full moon. If it's ok to have Pascha move away from this specified time, then rejoice in and follow the Julian Calendar / Paschalion. But then drop an claim to being faithful to the dating specified by Nicaea.

Also, my question about the initial quote:

I guess that i should have made my statement clearer. I personally think that Pascha should not fall before Jewish passover because it makes since to me.

When it comes to the calender it is a well known fact that both calenders are incorrect.This is really sad because for what purpose did the Greeks change? With this change did not the Greeks sever liturgical unity with the rest of Orthodoxy? Even on the holy mountain the calender is the traditional.
So what happened to the liturgical harmony that makes the church visibly one? And what is the reason for the Orthodox to change? Because of unity? We do not belive that the church has ever been divided.And we will hold fast to the traditions that have been handed down to us "at least as best we can".And what of the sigillion of 1583 signed by the heads of Constantinople,Alexandria and Jerusalem and the rest of the synod that declares anathema to whosoever who follow the popes calender.

Alice, I read somewhere that Pope John Paul II when he was in Greece recited the Symbol of Faith without the filioque. If that's true, and not a legend, then your good remark could apply to the Symbol of Faith as well.

-- John

Pope John Paul did drop the filoque a number of times during his pontificate.

Yes the tiny RC community in Greece keeps Pascha on the same date as the Orthodox. In Finland the Orthodox Church keeps Pasha on the western computation. One thing is for sure the feast is celebrated regardless of the place.

You are entitled to think that way and it makes some sense if the desire is to maintain the historical, chronological sequence of events. Of course that sequence is rarely observed since 14 Nisan can be on any day of the week but Pascha must be a Sunday. Also, the desire of Nicaea was that Christians have their own independent method of determining Pascha that should not look to the Jews. As has been pointed out, the Jews themselves had conflicting methods for determining Passover, and why should the Christians be dependent on them. So Nicaea wisely determined that Pascha should not be relative to the year-to-year Jewish Passover but to the sequence of celestial events as they occurred at the time of the crucifixion-resurrection. That sequence is northern vernal equinox, full moon, next Sunday is Pascha. The Gregorian calendar maintains that sequence within the accepted approximations; the Julian calendar now usually does not and its derviation from that norm is increasing.

That is not the point since in a sense, all calendars are incorrect or arbitrary to some extent. A calendar is a method for keeping the seasons fixed to or around fixed calendar dates, e.g. spring, March 21. The Gregorian method does this, but will accumulate a one day error in, if I recall, sometime after the year 5000, and an easy fix is known. The Julian method accumulates a one day error around every 125 years, the present difference being 13 days, and there is no easy fix.

If such a harmony is the issue, one can achieve it by following a calendar that adheres to the prescriptions of Nicaea (Gregorian) or one that does not (Julian), relative to the actual celestial events on which they are supposed to be based. Those are the general choices. Aleppo chose adherence to Nicaea and as a result, and not a biased intent, essentially confirmed the accuracy of the Gregorian calendar.

You may then be pleased to know that in 2010 and 2011 both Easters coincide. The first time for two consecutive occurrences in over thirty years.

Alice,
I think that is true of most Catholics!
We would be ready to celebrate the same computation of Easter as the Orthodox! (Maybe the Pope needs to be asked by the other Patriarchates.)
And as far as the Symbol of Faith, I am sure we would be ready to drop the filioque from the Creed, (As long as this was not an admission to its being heretical.) We would be ready to say that now that the danger of semi arianism is over, we could revert to saying the Creed in its original form.
Stephanos I
It is an option for those Orthodox in Communion with the Apostolic See of Rome, whether they use it or not. I know the majority of eastern churches that I have celbrated in do not use it. (Now if we could convince them to get rid of the kneelers. )

I wonder if this will be used as the opportunity to become unified. It seems to be an opening or dialogue.

The Council of Nicaea spoke of an agreement that would allow Christians to celebrate the Pascha on a single day, but it left no computational system for establishing the date of the Pascha. The present system (i.e, observing the Pascha on the Sunday following the first full moon that occurs on or after the day of the vernal equinox) developed in Alexandria and spread from there over the course of more than four centuries throughout Europe, and in fact this practice was only adopted at Rome in the mid 5th century, and in England in the late 7th century, and spread to other areas in Western Europe after the time of Charlemagne. Let us not try to make this a "science" project, because it is not one, and no one is necessarily right or wrong in observing the Pascha according to the Julian calendar or the Gregorian calendar. That said, the one thing that the Orthodox have on their side in this debate is that they are trying to maintain their tradition in the face of the constant desire for change and modernization prevalent in the West.

Interesting that Our Lord and Our Lady at Soufineh request unity between Catholics an Orthodox on the Paschal date wihtout specifying a preference for either method.

[quote=Fr. Deacon Lance]Interesting that Our Lord and Our Lady at Soufineh request unity between Catholics an Orthodox on the Paschal date wihtout specifying a preference for either method. [/quote]

-oOo-

The Melkite Patriarch made the decision to have his Church celebrate Pascha in unity with the Orthodox, I think this commenced in 2002. But this observance was restricted (by the Vatican?) to those countries where the Orthodox are in the majority over the Catholics. So in the USA the Melkites must still keep the Latin Paschalion.

If memory serves Pope John Paul suggested that Catholics adopt the Orthodox Paschalion and the Othodox adopt the Gregorian Calendar for the Sanctoral Cycle. This brings everything into synch. The major anxiety about this, from the Orthodox side, would be a fear of a large schism in the Russian, Serb, and Jerusalem Churches, something which has unfortunately already taken place in those Churches which have adopted the Gregorian.

I recommend reading the links I provided on the discussion of this topic in this forum since they already take into consideration the above peripheral issues. I have regarded the "Canons" as a given since they are readily invoked and not disputed by the Julian calendar proponents; e.g. in this thread: Note that I say "core agreed upon facts" and "purported" canons.

The threads that you linked to are quite nice, but they do not change the fact that there are no extant canons or other documents from the Council of Nicaea itself that give a system for determining the date of the Pascha. As I said in an earlier post, the present practice spread throughout Europe over the course of more than four centuries.

That said, there is no reason for the Orthodox to give up their practice in favor of the modern practice of the West.

I know, and have alluded to this, but acknowledged 4th century etc. documents giving the rule as from Nicaea are accepted, are not disputed, and are advanced by Julian calendar/Paschalion advocates as givens. I started to selectively quote a general explanation but was including so much that the essay should just be read if full. I gave early on quote and a link to this essay. The essay makes the key points and should be considered: The date of Pascha and the reason for the differences between the Western and Eastern Christians [holy-trinity.org] Nicholas Ossorguine, Instructor in Liturgics, St Sergius Orthodox Theological Institute, Paris, 1979.

The rule, the prescription was established and not disputed as such, but the method for determining the date in conformity with the rule was not. This only confirms that there in fact were variations for quite some time. Only eventually did the Alexandrian method become generally accepted from among those available.

There is no reason if that is the only consideration. As the essay I referenced and linked indicates, however, there are a number of biblical, mystical, and theological considerations of cosmic proportion that come into consideration -- the “cosmic icon” that Ossorguine mentions. For instance, he notes that "One particular Sunday of the year is dedicated to this feast of Resurrection. And this is the day, when there is a particular alignment of the Sun, Moon and Earth." That alignment in our present cosmos is not consistently represented by the Julian calendar/Paschalion, and eventually it will be impossible for it to do so. The Gregorian calendar or the Aleppo proposal correct that inconsistency and properly identify the "One particular Sunday of the year ... dedicated to this feast of Resurrection... when there is a particular alignment of the Sun, Moon and Earth."

How important is it , Julian calendar readers and others, to be in general accord with that alignment?