www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Mixed marriage

I was interested to see the post on Catholic-Orthodox marriage. I have seen that booklet many times, because I am an Orthodox who may marry a Catholic and have read a lot (as much as I can find) about the topic. But so much remains unclear to me, still. It is indeed difficult.

To me, over the long time I have spent thinking about it, there are 4 main issues with a mixed marriage:
1) What church to get married in, 2) What church to attend, 3)What religion to raise children under, and 4) Where to receive communion (jointly, as a family united under God).

The first question, I have read about in that booklet, which says "we recommend that the Catholic Church, as a normative practice, allow the Catholic party of a proposed marriage with an Orthodox to be married with the Orthodox priest officiating." I still wonder...doesn't getting married in one church mean you should then attend that church? If it does, then this statement means all should attend the orthodox church. A point of confusion for me, still. (Any thoughts)?

The second question- we would attend the byzantine catholic church. We think it's a beautiful sign of unity, and I would be happy to be a part of it. (Any thoughts?)

The third question- we would raise our children as byzantine catholic. This one, I had difficulty with at first. In a joint statement ( Pastoral Statement on Orthodox/Roman Catholic Marriages - Joint Committee of Orthodox and Catholic Bishops), "In some cases, when it appears highly probable that only one of the partners will fulfill his or her responsibility, it seems desirable that children should be raised in that partner's church. In other cases, the children's spiritual formation may include a fuller participation in the life and traditions of both churches, respecting always each church's canonical order. In these cases, the decision regarding the children's church membership is more difficult to make. Yet we are convinced that it is possible to make this decision in good conscience because of the [b]proximity of our churches' doctrine and practice which enables each, to a high degree, to see the other precisely as Church, as the locus for the communion of the faithful with God and with each other through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit[/b]."

The fourth question- where to receive communion. Well, in the byzantine catholic church. The priest of the BC church nearby I spoke to said several orthodox families do this regularly. I was happy to hear of the orthodox bishop receiving communion at a catholic church recently (just my view), which furthened my feelings on it. Although some advice on mixed marriages is out there, communion is hardly touched. It's expected that in a mixed marraige each spouse must still attend separate churches for communion? Or separate churches altogether? (Any thoughts?)
I came across An agreed statement on the Holy Eucharist- http://www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/eucharist.html
It bewilders me that this is an agreed statement of the eucharist yet there is no agreement! What? I have been frustrated to no end trying to understand this. With this information, plus the fact that many orthodox have given catholics communion, plus the outstanding event that happened this summer... it is hard to convince me that I cannot receive communion at a byzantine catholic church. Words say no, but actions speak louder than words and carry true meaning.

I've spoken with several priests...I've been told everything from don't marry a catholic, to look at who the person is in their heart, rather than focusing on their religion (this was actually from an orthodox priest, and then from his wife, believe it or not). I have overall received mixed opinions from orthodox priests which has made my decisions all the more difficult. I have therefore gathered as much information as I could on my own and tried to come to the best decisions that I felt right with. I do not take any of this lightly whatsoever.

I plan on getting some further information from my parish priest. I think the topic of mixed marriages between orthodox and catholics does need more (recent) attention and guidance from religious authorities. Overall, my most important ideal is to be a family united under God, together, which contributes to my decisions as well.

God bless!

My wife to be is a Byzantine Catholic and I'm a Roman Catholic...Her priest told her that the children should be raised in the father's rite as long as he is Catholic. Does any one have objective evidence of this being true?

Absolutely. This is Catholic canon law. My parents are the reverse of your situation, but the same rules apply. My father is Greek Catholic, my mother was Roman Catholic. Marrying my father automatically made her Greek Catholic. My brother and I were baptized and confirmed Greek Catholic.

The Greek Catholic priest is correct.

In the current code of Canon law the parents make the decision which Rite the children will be brought up in. The old code had it that Rite followed father.

From what I understand you are Orthodox, and thus your situation is significantly different than that of the brothers and sisters who are Byz Catholics.

Keep in mind that Orthodox Christian can not commune at Roman Catholic or Byzantine Catholic Churches, and neither can a Catholic receive communion at an Orthodox Church.

My wife was Polish Roman Catholic and she remained so for the first 6-7 months of our marriage. In the beginning she had no plans of becoming Orthodox, but it grew on her, and she was drawn to the Orthodox Church. Eventually she asked the Priest about conversion, and the rest is history.

Just make sure you do not push her, but rather let her make up her own mind.

No offense to the Byz Cath and Rom Cath folks here, but I am obviously happy that my wife is now Orthodox, and she is happy also.

Actually, everyone is wrong - at least in part. Canon Law continues to give preference to the Church of the father, but it allows that preference to be put aside - if both parents freely request that the child be baptized in the Church of the father.

Failure on the part of the parents to expressly state their intent to exercise that preference will cause the child to be baptized in the Church of the father - regardless of the ritual form (Latin or non-Latin) in which the Mystery is served.




Again, not the case. The right of a woman to transfer to the Church of her husband at marriage - or at any time thereafter during the life of the marriage - and to return to her cradle Church at termination of the marriage (by death or otherwise) is permissive, not prescriptive. Note the terms used - is at liberty and can freely


Many years,

Neil

Yes you are right. As I understand it needs to be clearly written in the Baptismal Register that a choice was made, or the father's rite is the default. Poor book keeping is going to be a problem for some in the future.

jkay:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

Responding to your question in bold-- No. Why would you think that? People marry in one church or another these days and attend/join another every day. Having your nuptials blessed in a parish doesn't require you to establish membership. On the other hand, there are some clergy who require that an unchurched couple coming to them for marriage join their particular parish and be members for some time. My brother and his wife are an example. When they married, they joined an Episcopal parish because they wanted to be married by the Rector, who was their neighbor. The rule that the clergyman had was that they had to be a member for a minimum of six months and regular attendees during that time.

But with couples living far from parents--and for that matter the parish in which they will be married--a rule like this would be impossible to live up to.

The ecumenical agreement that has brought about this practice of the Catholic party being married in the Orthodox Church is meant to allow the Orthodox member to continue to be in Eucharistic communion with the Orthodox Church and it is a recognition of the Orthodox Church having saving, grace-filled Mysteries. It is a practice growing out of Vatican II. The Catholic party can be married by a dispensation of his/her bishop in any Christian Church or ecclesial community when that seems to fit the relationship of the couple. OTOH, an Orthodox Christian marrying outside the Orthodox Church is no longer allowed participation in Holy Communion.

I remember, sadly, the situation of a young man I once knew who married a Protestant woman. Her parents were adament that she be married in her community. He'd been an altar server and very active in his parish. After his marriage, he attended a few Sundays, but eventually drifted away because he wasn't allowed to do anything or receive Holy Communion.

It seems to me that this whole area is one that few of our Churches or communities really spend much time talking about prior to these cases coming up. Young people need to take a hard look at faith issues and how they are lived out long before they start to look for a life partner. Different groups do not look at marriage the same way. And there is still much prejudice against Catholics and Orthodox Christians in this age. One of the young men my daughter was once serious about suddenly became extremely anti-Catholic--something like "coming out of the closet"--when things got to a serious level. Seems his parents had a hidden anti-Catholic side that came to the fore and he mirrored it. So I showed him the opposite side and told him bluntly that there would be no marriage anywhere outside a Catholic parish that I would not stand to object at the beginning of the service. That put an end to it. Point is that everyone needs to be bold enough to state unequivocably what they will and will not be able to live with. Byt eh grace of God, both my children have strong spouses who share their faith.

There's enough stress in a marriage without the foundation--Christ and how we approach Him--being unstable.

In Christ,

BOB

Jkay,

I would discourage a mixed marriage for several reason. The first is that can a couple really raise their kids in a way that teaches them to respect their faith when Dad (or Mom) doesn't respect it, even if that parent has given the other his(her) permission to raise the kids in that faith? The second reason is that I love more than anything being able to worship God together, in the same Church (and church) and believing exactly the same thing.

As someone who recently was faced with similar choices, I would make the recomondation with your beloved that you and her make the commitment to study together and decide which church the two of you want to be in as a family; Then get married in and attend that Church. My wife and I did the same thing and I am very grateful that we did. I cannot imagine going to seperate Churches on sunday. Other problames would arrise too such as the form fasting, daily prayer and other spiritual that needs familial concensus would take.

With regard to an Orthodox receiving communion in a Catholic Church; according to canon law "Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches." (Canon 844 I think)

Matthew

This is because he was living as if he was married but their marriage was not a mystical (as in sacremental) one. In the eyes of the church, they aren't married but are living together. As sad a situation as it was, any of the Catholic Churches should have the same response. If they had had the Mystery of matrimony, the situation would have been different.

Matthew

Jkay,

As Bob has pointed out, if you do not marry in the Orthodox Church then you will not be permitted to receive communion. I also am one who would discourage mixed marriages. But if this is where your conscience and your heart leads you, then I would strongly suggest you get good counsel from your priest and that you realize the ramifications of any decision that you make.

Joe

JOE:

Christ is in our midst!! HE is and always will be!!

I think this is an area, as I said above, that none of us teaches about or emphasizes enough, but it is of the utmost importance. Communion is the most important experience we have in this life, bar none. It isn't just something we do as a spiritual exercise or some "churchy" thing. It is our encounter with Christ.

It seems to me we need to

1. teach a thorough, deep theology about Communion with Christ in all its ramifications,
2. teach a thorough, deep theology about what membership in the Church means, without waffling that leads young people to think we're all interchangeable--one is as good as another or none is okay, too, because we all get to Heaven no matter what,
3. teach the consequences of marrying outside the Church and don't make it sound like it's only like leaving the Lions Club,
(Use one of my relatives' quote: "This life isn't a dress rehearsal; it's the real and only one-time shot you get to get it right.")

It's part and parcel of the idea that this whole commitment made in Baptism is just that--a serious commitment with eternal consequences. I guess, for me, it's the concrete recognition of the fact that Christ's words about being judged on everything I do or think or say isn't ink on a page. It's the only reality I know.

Forgive me for getting on my soapbox. I just faced down the fact that I might have had to account for my life this past week and got a second chance. Trust me, I won't waste it.

In Christ,

BOB

Bob, your words are wise and I agree with everything you have said.

Joe

The Latin Church tolerates mixed marriaged for the good of the Catholic Party, however it is like trying to mixe oil with water they tend to seperate and divide.
Stephanos I

Father Stephanos:

Father bless!!

There's another part that I witness in my work and relationships. The situation tends to force the couple to come to some "lowest common denominator" so that the couple can live together without constant problems with value systems. So often I've seen the Catholic party adopt some sort of very lukewarm approach to practicing the Faith.

What I can't get across--to one of my own cousins in this situation--is that practicing religion and practicing the Faith are about as far apart as playing a sport and doing in on the computer.

Again, part of this misplaced "ecumenism" that people seem to think demands that we all pull back to some mushy place is to blame. Ecumenism, rightly understood, means that no one compromises but does two things. First, learns to speak his position in charity--a big order for some--and trying to understand what the other person is saying to see if there is a commonality that actually exists, hidden under different ways of approaching the Mystery and expressing it. Sadly, to many, it means "let's just get along" and cast out what doesn't allow us to do so.

BOB