www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Why don't we pray for the Orthodox Patriarchs?

As long as there is obstinate disunion I suspect that there are many errors in both camps. But then I'm not the Church. Let us reunite and and have a good ecumenical council to sort out the details.

We've had this discussion many many times over the years on this very forum. Without a willingness to unite it won't happen. All I've suggested is that we pray for each other no matter what either side thinks.

CDL

In my opinion (for what it's worth) the issue is not one of stubborness but of genuine doctrinal disagreement. Unless one side capitulates, there will not be reunion. Having said that, I do think that privately we should pray for one another but in the liturgy we can only commemorate those hierarchs who are a part of our communion.

Joe

If I believed that there is no hope I'd become a follower of Mel Gibson, if you catch my drift.

CDL

Re "Is canon 34 of the apostolic canons erroneous then?"

"Apostolic" canon 34 does not mention the Pope. It does not seem to be incompatible with the doctrine of the universal jurisdiction of the Pope. Here it is:

So universal jurisdiction is understood at all times to be subject to the consent and approval of the church as outlined in canon 34?

I've gotta agree with Father Deacon Lance and Joe on this one.

The purpose of the commemoration is (so it seems to me) to pray for and acknowledge communion with the bishop of the local church, whose orthodoxy is unquestioned and who can trace his succession back to the apostles and to the legitimate local synod [those who have access to actual scholarly knowledge on this issue please chime in]. This distinguishes us from vagante groups and diverse heretics, whether we're talking about Palestine in 200AD, Rome in 300 AD or modern day America (in fact, my minimal study of the time period gives me the impression that there were more heretical groups, vagantes, pagans and pseudo-spiritual gatherings back then than there are today)

Thus I'm told the "correct" tradition is to commemorate only the local bishop (as discussed by Joe), who from there commemorates the patriarch of the synod, and the patriarch who commemorates those he's in communion with. Commemoration of the patriarch is allegedly a later addition. Even the commemoration of the Pope of Rome I'm told is not traditional outside of a Patriarchal liturgy - whom the patriarch is in communion with is his business. This again underscores communion in the local church; commemoration of those outside the local synod strikes me as contrary to the purpose of the commemoration.

Thus, it would be strange and to my mind superfluous for Melkite liturgies to commemorate Patriarch Lubomyr (as much as I may like him and the Ukrainians) or the local Latin bishop, since they are not part of our local church, even though we are in communion with them as the leaders of fellow [small o] orthodox Christians.

I'd say similar applies to commemoration of Patriarch Kiril or (I must sadly say) of Patriarchs Bartholomew, Theophilos, Theodoros, or Ignatius since they aren't part of our synod. In fact, commemoration of them is even more problematic than with Patriarch Lubomyr because they are not in communion with us; they do not recognize the Melkite Greek Catholic Church as a church of [small and large O] Orthodox Christians.

My $0.02

It seems to me that there isn't much difference between the canon and the way the Pope and his bishops have been operating for quite some time.

CDL

So why is the Pope protos of Eastern Christians outside their countries of origin?

Markos,

Thank you for the explanation. Is there a way that would not damage some liturgical canon to pray for our enemies, or must we have an ecumenical council to permit us to do what we are asked to do by Jesus Himself?

CDL

CDL,

Your post is over the top. This is not a matter of wanting to pray for enemies! In every Divine Liturgy we already pray for the "holy churches of God and for the union of all". Those who wish to pray more intensely for the restoration of full communion between East and West can certainly do so. There are even places in the litanies prayed at Vespers, Matins and the Divine Liturgy where special petitions - appropriately worded - can be inserted.

Admin