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Mar 25th, 2025
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Joined: Mar 2002
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What a deeply troubling website. It seems that ultra-feminism is fast spreading into Orthodoxy. I hope that the Orthodox bishops will crack down on this nonsense. It doesn't end there, either. See the "Inter-Orthodox Consultation" of 2008 in Volos. While we may have the occasional rule-breaker amongst the clergy there is no organized women's group of this magnitude or organization. A few quotes: 3. The participants noted with thanksgiving that the situation for Orthodox women in some contexts had reached significant milestones by the grace of God, including establishing a Special Synodical Commission on Women’s Issues (Church of Greece), approving changes in language of occasional prayers concerning women (Holy Synod of Antioch), the blessing of deaconesses for ministry (Coptic Orthodox Church), participating in the decision making process at the parish and church level and serving as readers and choir leaders (Finland).
4. However, many of the concerns of women have not yet been fully addressed within the life of the Church and are still relevant today. For instance:
a need for better access to and funding for Orthodox women to study theology and then, if desired, to have the opportunity for employment within the Church
a need to support pastoral care ministries by Orthodox women and to others (e.g. hospice, hospital, nursing home, prison and other institutional, community and military chaplaincies) and equip women for this ministry
a need for women to be included in decision making processes in the administrative bodies of their churches
a need to address the understanding of women’s biology and the dignity of women, including the prayers and practices associated with women’s menstrual cycle, childbirth, 40-day churching, miscarriages, etc.
a yearning for women to be admitted into the “minor orders” (e.g. altar server, blessed reader, chanter, etc.) and newer ministries (e.g. preacher) to more fully serve within the liturgical assembly and other ministries and to better serve the needs of women and men in the Church
a holy desire for the restoration of the order of Deaconess and a rejuvenation of all diaconal work
5. Since the last inter-Orthodox women’s consultation in Istanbul, Turkey in 1997, many changes have taken place, both globally and locally in the Orthodox Churches and their respective countries. Therefore, we feel a full assessment of the current situation and needs of Orthodox women is required as well as development of a framework for future action in order to identify areas of common concern as well as differences and to provide an overview of the complexity of the many current realities—social, cultural, economic, political—affecting the life of Orthodox women...
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Yes, the scope is sweeping in its size. A full 45 people attended that conference. These 45 claim to represent multiple Orthodox churches worldwide (Europe, Asia, Australia, Middle East, North America by the statement of the consultation. These 45 would seem to represent many more than themselves, organized on multiple continents, and there has been no hierarchal suppression to my knowledge. And this is not the first time - Romania, Crete, Rhodes, Istanbul, and now Volos. As I recall this representation is larger and involves more continents than the previous meeting of 1997. I don't think it is something that should be easily dismissed, as Asianpilgrim also noted. As I mentioned, there is no similar Greek Catholic organization even eparchial, much less worldwide. I hope the hierarchy of all the ancient Churches are vigilant about any feminist movements within their churches especially when they involve specific public ministerial recommendations and demands.
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The 45 represent a fringe group. A fringe group that exists, but perhaps like all fringe groups looks a lot bigger than it is when representing themselves on the Internet. I've never seen at the grass roots that they have any support whatsoever, and this is not in what would be considered strongly "traditionalist" environments. I put stock in the position of those such as Patriarch Kirill, who affirmed strongly we do not support change. The strength of the church is the monastery, and it is the monastery that will save us from anything that arises in Volos, Geneva, Rhodes or wherever.
The hierarchs certainly cannot suppress people for having an opinion. I would start to get worried if the hierarchs ignored actual abuses (and not just opinions) like altar girls. I would also be worried if the hierarchs started advocating revised liturgical texts with modernist agendas in them.
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Honestly I don't have a dog in that fight; for one thing my Church does not belong to the WCC or is in communion with any Church belonging to the WCC and we have no such organized group of women in our Church or similar interecclesial body, recognized or otherwise making public demands for ministry, etc. with a historical track record of such activity. I would also be worried if the hierarchs started advocating revised liturgical texts with modernist agendas in them. I was not aware that the hierarchy had formally forbidden any of the New Skete translations, some certainly revisionist in nature. They haven't been Greek Catholic for decades, so that doesn't carry much water. There have definitely been changes. The former Greek Archdiocese pew books have "We thank You, Lord, lover of mankind" at the Prayer of Thanksgiving; the current text http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/liturgy_hchcindicates "We thank You, loving Master, benefactor of our souls". The former text for the dismissal was "...for He is good and loves mankind". The current text is "a good, loving, and merciful God" with a complete ommission of "mankind". And there are others, but that is start. Unfortunately this sort of thing is creeping into far too many places.
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Honestly I don't have a dog in that fight Then I'm not sure why the Orthodox Church was even brought up in the thread, since it wasn't/isn't about it. It's about the Eparchy of Parma.
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I'll rephrase - while I do not have a personal stake in the discliplinary outcome of the "Inter-Orthodox Consultation" (as my Church does not belong to the WCC nor has this group present within it), it is quite pertinent to this thread, however, that active and organized feminist groups are at work even within Orthodox churches, officially recognized or not, and that inclusive language and other manifestations of such influence is not solely within the confines of any one particular Church.
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I made the original post to start this thread but have not checked back for a couple days. Thanks to all who took the time to reply.
From what I gather from the replies, the diocese of St. Josaphat is unique in that it is the only Ukrainian diocese which has formulated its own text for the Liturgy in English. It sure seems to me that this Ukrainian diocese beat the BCC to the punch in formulating a pathetic form of Liturgy. I'm glad to hear that Cardinal Husar is working on something more standardized, however.
It just infuriates me that there are no local Catholic parishes, eastern or western, left where somebody with any trace of traditional convictions can be at peace. Maybe one day those who are making these decisions will do something to reverse the decay when/if they realize there are people, like me, who will not support parishes which are implementing these practices.
Last edited by Athanasius1967; 03/01/09 05:30 PM.
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Try Holy Protection Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, which I believe is in Parma. They even keep the Julian Calendar, God love them.
Fr. Serge
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however, that active and organized feminist groups are at work even within Orthodox churches, officially recognized or not, and that inclusive language and other manifestations of such influence is not solely within the confines of any one particular Church. I would actually be most worried about the OCL myself.
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The sad reality of this whole women servers issue is all about the henous lie and heresy of feminism which IMHO is essentially: equality at the expense of Economy. How absurd it would be to discuss the hypostasis of the Holy Trinity bickering amongst themselves as to position within the Ousia of their united essence! Yet male and female are a reflection of the economia of the Holy Trinity. They each have a specific role that reflects the wholeness/oneness of both. The Theotokos is the architypal model for women. Holy, pure, chaste, immaculate, etc. She molded Jesus and taught him as a child the sacred scriptures and laws. Yet she did not resent HIS public ministry as opposed to the one she "should have had". This I suspect never crossed her mind. Economy is again expressed in the scripture where it talks about Jesus being God never felt the need to be equal with God (although he is in fact God). His was a ministry of Diaconia and service. One will oft hear another quote St. Paul and his directive toward women covering their heads in church or not preaching in the church and the corrosponding viseral accusation of ancient sexism but St. Paul, a true mystic alludes to Economia. His intent, I believe, was not the denegration of women or relegating them as second-class christians, but one of recognizing their essential vocation as nurturers. I could write on and one but I will end on a more pragmatic evidence of this "equality without concern for economy." The advent over the past 30 of two parent working households. We have seen a resultant inflation which now requires two persons to work in many cases. It leaves a gaping vaccum for who cares for the children. Can women do the same stuff as men? Of course they can! Should they? That is the question of conscience for which the sacred tradition and ecclesia of the church exist to guide us.
Sbdn Jon
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...deacons performing the proskomedia... Isn't that an early practice among the Byzantines?
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...deacons performing the proskomedia... Isn't that an early practice among the Byzantines? Yes.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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...deacons performing the proskomedia... Isn't that an early practice among the Byzantines? Yes. ...and, if I read Hugh Wybrew correctly, the deacons also were responsible for the Great Entrance...
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