www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Priests Vestments in Ukraine ( High back or regular )

Does anyone here have an info on which style of vestments was originally used in Ukraine?

Was it the High back vestments or the regular Greek style?

Older paintings and drawings show Greek style. As I understand the high-backs came out of the Poltava region sometime in about the 17th century or so. Amongst the UOC-KP clergy both kinds are worn as a matter of personal preference.

The high back are based on the older style of vestment, that is is much easier to make. It is basically that older style with stiffening in the areas that goes over the shoulders. Tailored seams over the shoulders is a newer style.

I am very surprized at your mention of Poltava. Poltava is not a significant city or even area in Ukrainian Orthodox Church tradition.
What are your sources?
Just out of curiosity what pictures and paintings are you are referring to and from what time period?
Because of all the fighting and battles and fires, there are not that many paintings around from historic times. And the paintings that do exist usually only show the hierarchy.
Just for your information, in Canada, the Ukrianian orthodox Church uses a compromise of vestments are are in between the low Greek style and the very high Russian style.

It is often said that the "high-back" phelonion came into use when the priests (especially the hieromonks) began wearing very long hair, Keeping the hair inside the back of the phelonion protects the brocade (and the jewels, if any). Whether this is in fact the origin of the "high-back" phelonion, I don't claim to know.

However, the use of the term "regular" vestments to describe the Greek style of phelonion is not entirely justified.

Fr. Serge

I am going to throw something silly out there...

Could the high backs have originated as a way to keep the neck warm from frigid drafts and cold?!?

I find that many fashions throughout past history have practical purposes.

Alice

Alice may have a point here. I asked my priest last night at the Sunday of Forgiveness Vespers and he said there was an old joke about "cold winters" and high back vestments.



17th century Poltava had nothing to do with church traditions.

Reminds me of all the discussions of Chernihiv banduras versus Kyivan banduras.

I'll have to do some checking, but my recollection was they started in the area of Poltava diocese after the reforms of Peter which may have been early 18th century and not 17th as I previously indicated. My mistake. But I am not claiming this to be definitive in any way; it is strictly anecdotal and I would take all tales of the origin of the "high backs" as somewhat fabled, since everyone seems to have a different story as to their origination.

In any case amongst the non-MP clergy in Ukraine both Greek and "high-back" are in use.

Yes, I've seen the "mid-range" style, but I have also seen Greek-style in Canada, but much less often. It seems the UOC-USA uses that style more frequently [Linked Image]

Regarding historical Rus' artwork, I don't recall any iconography or art from early Rus' that had anything but low-back ("Greek") vestments on any clergy. Perhaps if you have an exception from before say the late 17th century you could share that.

A couple of quick examples - the Last Judgement from Mshana, late 15th century (the clergy are on the third row):
[Linked Image]

From Lutsk:
[Linked Image]

I am rather surprised that anyone who knows much Ukrainian Church history would not know at least something about the 40 plus saints (among them St. Paissius Veychkovsky - certainly very significant) and at least five wonderworking icons that have come from the Poltava region.
http://www.pravoslavie.poltava.ua/

It would rather seem an insult to the Ukrainian spiritual tradition and contribution of those people to say it is "not a significant city or even area in Ukrainian Orthodox tradition". And that does not even touch the rich cultural tradition with Hohol, hetmanska and Kozak history, etc.

Thanks for all the answers.

I like both styles btw :)

What on earth is hetmanska ? and St. Paissius Veychkovsky
I personally think that Hohol's works (written in Russian) when dealing with religion were not to my taste. A very strange man, very morbid. Not expressing the joy of Orthodoxy that I like.

If you mean Pasius Velichkovsky (1722-1794) that is the 18th century not the 17th century that you first mentioned. Plus, the poor man had to leave Poltava to develope his spirituality and rediscover hesychasm. The church greatly benefited by the resulting revivial of monasticism.

Just to refresh your memory, you specifically mentioned 17th century Poltava as the origin of the high back vestments. This would mean the 1600's.


The 1600's in Poltava were not a siginificant time for Ukrainian church traditions. That was my point. Chernihiv on the other hand was a significant city in terms of church affairs.
In terms of history per se, the Battle of Poltava took place in the following century.
Sorry if I did not express this clearly the first time.

In these days of Holy Lent, especially, we all need to try to remember to speak charitably to our brothers and sisters. If someone has made an error, I don't think that our Lord would like us to embarrass them. I am sure that is not what you intended, dear Miller, so this is just a reminder to all to be careful before you post...without emoticons (like a smile or wink), the above can be construed as such.

Forgive me a sinner,
Alice

Sorry for my rapid strokes and mispellings - That would be the hetman state and its heritage and St. Paissius/Paissy Velychkovsky.

I still strongly disagree that Poltava is insignificant in Ukrainain Orthodox tradition with its heritage of saints, etc. even in the 17th century.

I'll disagree with Hohol as well - he is often hilarious (Christmas Eve for example) and to say he is without joy in expressing his Orthodox faith - you must not have read his medidations on the Divine Liturgy.