www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Excommunications After Raped 9-Year-Old Has An Abortion

As someone who has had Preclampsia and almost died I will tell you that they take the baby early. My little one was born 2 months early and was 2 and a half pounds. I was in ICU after she was taken by c-section. My Catholic friend Dani had the same problem and her son was 4 months early. A baby in that situation has a better chance to survive out of the mother and in a NICU. Of all the moms I have met Catholic or something else not one of them would even think of abortion. In fact this situation makes one more prolife. Our babies are alive and doing very well.

I know enough about the Orthodox church to know that abortion is NEVER not evil. Catholics and Orthodox believe Christ was God and man at conception and since we are made in his image it is a crime to take one of these little lives. No matter what the situation is of the little ones parents.

Take a look at what women go through after an abortion. Read what they say. Silent no more is an great place to find this out. This poor girl will have to live a double abortion and rape. No this has just added to her trama.

I do not know why this bishop was so public about this other than to enforce the teaching of the Church. I do not know if this rapist was even Catholic.(Not a done deal in South America any more)I am sure there is more to it than that.His crime is puts him in danger of hell so I am not sure what the bishop should do.

This one man's opinion is just that. The fact is many saintly Catholics lied about lots of things to the Nazi's and are comended by Holy Mother Church.

First of all Joe this persons understanding of a lie isnt accurate, lying means telling an untruth to someone who has the right to know, the Nazis obviously did not have that right so it was no lie.
Stephanos I

Mrs MW - I have a question for you - were you a nine year old child when you had your C-Section ?

I don't approve of Abortion - it's wrong

But here we are talking of a child , not a teenager who decided to have sexual relations with a man - we are talking about a child who was raped . There is a difference .Frankly I hope that she can blot this experience out ,but I have doubts. I have worked very closely with a Muslim girl who was raped at the same age - and believe me that girl was permanently emotionally damaged by it.

How any girl will be able to cope with the memories of rape at the age of 9 , and then the subsequent abortion - I shudder to think.

Lord have mercy

I was not saying my situation is the same. I was refering to Joe's comment on abortion and preclampsia. I should have quoted him but I did not.

No one is thinking a choice for life is easy. Life is filled with rotten choices. Not one is good due to the fact a sick evil man gave in to his sick perversion! I hope the goverment throws him in prison and throws away the key. I am a mother of three girls and have friends who have been raped as children. I just don't think abortion will in the long run help this girl to heal.

Collin,

That's quite a statement to say that the RCC (do you mean the actual RCC or the entire Church, all rites included?) gets it priorities wrong.

Alexis

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The sin of murder is before everything else an offense against God, a walking away from Him, a breaking of communion with Him. Likewise, so is the sin of rape that precipitated the sin of murder.

Reconciliation with the Lord requires conversion of the heart.

Conversion of the heart requires the unhardening of the heart in order to understand (in the case of murder by abortion) that the sin of murder that was purposely and freely committed was immoral. It requires acknowledgement that one freely chose to sin. It requires the understanding that the sin was wrong. It requires regret for the sin. We do not know the people involved in this situation so we do not know if there is genuine regret and contrition. It’s not a matter here of an unfair Church not offering economia. It is not a matter of a little sin committed by nice people faced with bad choices. You cannot falsely reconcile with the Lord!

Confession is required. And penance.

So much correct theology – Catholic and / or Orthodox is missing from this discussion.

Please remember to pray for the child involved, for her murdered children, and for those who have done harm to her. May the Lord God lead them.

Very well said. There were certainly options here that could have preserved life.

I have a daughter that will be 9 in two months. There is no reason for me to doubt that a small nine year old girl wouldn't be able to carry twins to micro-preemie viability without endangering her life. I am in no way able to judge the goodness of the doctor or mother's character prior to this, but I do feel for them. They could be just what you described, very nice people faced with terrible choices that to them involved loss of life from every angle. I do feel for them and I think that most people with a beating heart do too. However, a heart is what the Bishop seems to be lacking in his public excommunication.

Now that I think about it... Why does he have to publically say it? Would it have been better not to say anything at all? The options are ALL bad.

Any medical folks here who could weigh in on the chance this pregnancy could have made it to term?

Any thoughts on the death penalty for child rapists?

Adamantly opposed to it.

I'll get back to the main topic later. I'm opposed to the death penalty for child rapists because I think that the death penalty is an important card for prosecutors that should be saved in order to get information. Also, I think that if there was a death penalty for rape, there would be no incentive to not kill the victim. But if you have life for rape, death for murder, then you have an incentive for the rapist not to murder (that that this actually works out most of the time).

Joe

Dear John,

I don't think anyone here is claiming that there was no sin involved. From the point of view of objective morality, if we allow that the abortion was not necessary to save the mother's life, the action is wrong, perhaps, gravely so. Also, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any church discipline. But, I do believe that there could very well be significant mitigating factors and I think that the Church should take this into account and should act with mercy and compassion.

All intentionally willed homocides are grave, but not all are first degree murder. In light of the circumstances, one could reasonably conclude that, at worst, this was an act of manslaughter or perhaps murder 2. This has nothing to do with good or bad theology. It has everything to do with common sense.

Over the years I've noticed something about the prolife movement, at least about many people in it, that causes me some concern. And for the record, I'm not accusing anyone here of anything. I realize that it is difficult to draw general conclusions from anecdotal evidence. However, I think that it is reasonable to say that one danger in belonging to an activist movement, is that one loses the forest for the trees. Yes, abortion is wrong. Yes, it is a grave evil. Sometimes, it is murder. Much of the time, it is manslaughter. Occasionally, it is self defense. It saddens me that the Roman Catholic Church can't seem to grasp these basic, common sense, facts about the crime of abortion.

Why is it that the Church is so rigid and almost fanatical when it comes to saving lives in the womb, but when we are talking about life outside of the womb. My experience has been that many in the prolife movement seem much more willing to show compassion to a first degree murderer who killed someone living outside of the womb. Again, I'm not saying that this is universal. I'm just saying that I've frequently encountered this kind of attitude. The most frightening example I ever saw was at a prolife meeting where I was assisting with mailings. There were many ranting about killing abortion doctors (I know that this is not the norm for the prolife movement).

Anyway, the fundamental reason why I'm concerned is that many people (not just here but in other forums) are receiving a very negative response simply because they are advocating compassion and mercy. It feels almost as if some are saying that any concessions to this family shows that you are weak-willed on life. And I don't think that this is a fair judgment.

Finally, I noticed that no one has taken up the task of refuting my claim that the "principle of double effect," is nothing but casuistry. So, I will ask again the question that Alexis and I have asked:

Let us say that a woman, very early in her pregnancy, develops preeclampsia and let us say that it is a fact that there are only two options: Remove the fetus (who is not viable and will die) or don't do anything and both die. What is the right decision and why?

Joe

Dear Father Stephanos. This view, which you articulate here, is the view that I hold. But it is not the view of the majority of Catholic theologians and it doesn't seem to have any support in tradition. Aquinas is explicitly opposed to this view. According to Aquinas a lie can never be meritorious; not even for the best of reasons. However, good intentions can diminish the gravity of sin in telling the lie.

Here is what Aquinas says in the Summa:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3110.htm

See especially this:

On the contrary, It is written (Sirach 7:14): "Be not willing to make any manner of lie."

I answer that, An action that is naturally evil in respect of its genus can by no means be good and lawful, since in order for an action to be good it must be right in every respect: because good results from a complete cause, while evil results from any single defect, as Dionysius asserts (Div. Nom. iv). Now a lie is evil in respect of its genus, since it is an action bearing on undue matter. For as words are naturally signs of intellectual acts, it is unnatural and undue for anyone to signify by words something that is not in his mind. Hence the Philosopher says (Ethic. iv, 7) that "lying is in itself evil and to be shunned, while truthfulness is good and worthy of praise." Therefore every lie is a sin, as also Augustine declares (Contra Mend. i).


and in response to the lies told by Rahab the Harlot, the God-fearing midwives in Exodux, etc...

Reply to Objection 2. The midwives were rewarded, not for their lie, but for their fear of God, and for their good-will, which latter led them to tell a lie. Hence it is expressly stated (Exodus 2:21): "And because the midwives feared God, He built them houses." But the subsequent lie was not meritorious.

Peace and blessings,

Joe