www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Catholic or Orthodox?

you said

yes there are some instances where a UGCC Church [ Ukrainian catholic ] has in fact used both Julian and Gregorian Calendars - but they are not many . Usually one or the other is used.

No Parish is both Orthodox and Catholic - please believe me on this . Terminology is important - a Catholic Church can be orthodox but it is never never Orthodox

Right. I do understand. So can you answer the question that no one seems to want to answer? Does the Orthodox Church also claim the Eatern Rite Catholics as part of their church? I know EC follow the Holy Father. It seems like a mixed community sharing traditions here. I am wondering. I have to go so I am cut short. I will stop back later.
Thanks so much for your guidance.
Peace and Gods blessings!

I will attempt to answer your question.

In short, no. The Eastern Rite Catholics are under Rome. They used to be under Constantinople until they switched allegiance to Rome. An Eastern Catholic, typically, cannot receive Communion in an Orthodox Church.

I know I will be corrected if I'm wrong, but I think this is the essence of "the way it is."

In Christ,
Gabriel

Dear Cmoore,

....and an Orthodox parish is catholic but not Catholic.

Gabriel answered a bit above and here is some more. I think people may not be answering your question about to whom the Byzantines "belong" because it is a sensitive issue. I know the Byzantine Catholics will correct me if I am wrong.

The Byzantines are Catholic and that is their jurisdiction at this time. For many, it is the only jurisdiction they, or their parents or grandparents have ever known. If they have converted to the Byzantine Catholic faith, it may be the only jurisdiction in the history of their parish. That said, if you look historically at geographical areas or at particular parishes, you will discover that there have been parishes that have "belonged" to an Orthodox jurisdiction at one time and then to a Catholic jurisdiction, and possibly switched back and forth a few times. Causes? War, politics, request of the parish, etc. That is after 1054! And, prior to 1054 Byzantines were Catholic and Orthodox. I am not Byzantine, but I think, as per many of the people on this forum, there is a longing deep within for this unity, and thus a sensitivity as to whom they "belong."

I hope this helps.
prayers
nun Alexandra

Well said, Anhelyna, Gabriel, and Mother Alexandra

I hasten to put one caveat here (directed to the wider audience, not to the OP) ...

Anhelyna said a Catholic Church is orthodox not Orthodox and Mother that an Orthodox Church is catholic but not Catholic

Let's all keep in mind that the distinctions (upper versus lower case usages) made by our sisters were in keeping with common parlance, as the clearest answer to the OP's question. Bottom line, don't muddy their answers with polemical parsing.

Many years,

Neil

The BCC's often like to call themselves "Orthodox in communion with Rome." I used to do this myself. This arguement is furthered by their having a "Suri Uris" status. The problem is that "suri uris" is itself a definition formulated through Latin cannon law, thus subjugating the entire suri uris church to the very law by which it is defined. Sure, it has it's own cannon law but again, it is always with deference to the Principle Cannon Law which is the Roman/Latin one. So, as the nun above said, the BCC's are Catholic, UNDER Rome. They rightfully BELONG to the Orthodox but are not at this time in communion with them, subject to them or anything of the sort. It sure would be nice if Rome simply gave them to the Orthodox jurisdictions but many have not been able to relinquish their attachment to the Petrine Doctrine in it's current form and a certain nostalgia that comes with being "Catholic". It's all very messy and sad. We just have to keep praying.

Jon

Cmoore,

I'm going to expand very briefly on what the others have said, because I sense that there is another question here that we missed. But, I'm not completely certain of the focus - whether on our Churches in the broader world or here in this forum, so I'll touch each briefly.

As I think you now realize, in all but a few instances, there are counterpart Churches in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox communions and the Eastern and Oriental Catholic communions (e.g., the Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox and the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Churches or the Antiochian Orthodox and Melkite Catholic Churches). In general, there will be many shared elements (you used the term "traditions") between these paired Churches, which once were one. These will includes aspects of spirituality, liturgical languages and praxis, among others.

Now, if the comment of "mixed community" was an expression of a sense that you got of this forum, it is absolutely accurate. I'm going to excerpt a post describing ByzCath that I made elsewhere on the site a day or so ago because it explains what we are




Many years,

Neil

Thanks for expanding so if I were to say that the Eastern Catholics are part of the Roman Catholic Church yet many of the traditions stem from the Orthodox Church that would be correct. They feel a sence of community with the Orthodox Church even though thay are not in communion with the OC. This gives us hope of Christian Unity.

Maybe the EC are praying that the OC will soon be in communion with them? I know the LR prays for Christian Unity.

I am sensing a desire for unity in the mixed community here and I gather here represents our churches out in the world. I know there will be varying degrees of agreement and disagreement. I am looking for some strong points to grab the readers attention and I believe this is one of them. So I see te word unity here I read about the Holy Father praying for unity. I read about how the Orthodox Church would not have to make many changes to be in communion with the RC. I don't see it happening too soon.

I see similarities in the Divine Liturgy. In the preparation of communion. There are many terms I am unfamiliar with so please bear with me. I need to go study some more but I will be back for more in depth explanations.


I get the litle "o" and little "c" Luterans are catholic too but not Catholic.

I wanted to say more but have to run again. I work raise a family attend school. Now I have to walk the dog!

Cmoore,

While it wouldn't be totally incorrect to say "Eastern Catholics are part of the Roman Catholic Church", it would never be stated by any official Church document. The Catholic Church refers to herself as "the Catholic Church", when referring to the Universal Church, and as Roman or Latin when referring to that particular Church, Ukrainian when referring to that particular Church, Syro-Malankara when referring to that particular Church,etc.

It is better to say that Eastern Catholics as well as Roman Catholics are part of the Catholic Church (or Catholic Communion of Churches), but most Eastern Catholic traditions stem from the common Tradition they share with the Orthodox. [When you delve more deeply into this, you will notice that there are Western Orthodox, not in the Catholic (Communion of) Church(es), but share Traditions with the Latin/Roman Church].

As to Lutherans being "catholic", I don't think you'd get many people to agree with that idea on this forum. Small-c 'catholicity' implies having true sacramental bishops, Lutherans elect their minister to the office of bishop (which they view as an supervisor of clergy) for a term-limit, after the term is up, their bishops go back to being ministers - they don't believe there is anything sacramental (in the catholic sense), just an administrative position.

I see.
Yes, sacraments are shared by Catholic and Orthodox. Great point!

I just wanted to note that it is some Lutherans that like to consider themselves almost catholic. It isn't something that any Catholic would say.

There is an exception: the Swedish and Finnish Lutherans. They have an episcopacy like the Anglicans (there was talk of a union during the Reformation). When the ELCA, the main Lutheran group in the US, was formed, the Swedish Archbishop didn't take part in the service, because of the difference over orders.

Episcopal and Anglicans are not part of the Catholic Church either. Some think they are but they are not.

Your question regarding the "rightful" place for Eastern Catholics is a very intelligent, as well as a very controversial one. Around the world you will most likely receive as many different answers as respondents.

Our very existence is, to be quite frank, a "scandal" of the Apostolic Church. A scandal, not because of anything we have done, but because there is an unnatural division.
To many in the Western Church we are "unnecessary." To many in the East we are "illegitimate." To us Eastern Catholics we are a "bridge" that we pray will be a bridge to unity. The Orthodox and Catholic Churches share a nearly identical Faith ..... Seven Mysteries, called Sacraments in the Catholic Church....the Real Presence in the Eucharist...identical beliefs regarding Jesus Christ....and Heaven and Hell and a sense of a need for purgation of sins in the afterlife. Our canonical Bibles are almost the same, save for one psalm and the "Deuterocanonical Apocrypha".

As Eastern Catholics we have a mission to fulfill: that we have respect within the Catholic Church as an EQUAL to the Latin Rite (commonly called Roman Catholics) with rule as a "Sui Juris" church. (Sui Juris means "of one's own right"). If we can demonstrate over centuries that we are not "swallowed up" or "dominated" by the Latin Rite then we relieve the Orthodox Churches' fear that a new schism would only occur within a short time.

These are my convictions; they have no official backing that I'm aware of. Others will have differing honest and rightful convictions. I offer my comments as input for your paper.

Best wishes. May the Holy Spirit counsel you,

Fr. Deacon Paul

That is AWESOME! WOW! Tell me please Fr. Deacon Paul. Fr is the abbreviation for Father. Are you studying to be a priest?

Thank you so much for sharing! I do have another paper due way before this one but I can't stay away! I am drawn to finding out more and more and more! I tell everyone I am from the Eastern Rite. I am proud of it and always have been. I just wish I knew more and here is where all of you come in to help catechise me. To help direct me.

Bridge! AWESOME!

I think my paper will end up being a compare and contrast style paper. So many differences each with their own beauty and tradition yet similar. Beautiful!
Thanks again!