www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Eternity, change and purification -- "Does hell last forever?"

I was reading a thread at another website about the eternity of hell. (Why is the issue never the eternity of heaven?)

Anyway, I thought the issue was the ability to change in eternity and the hope for salvation in the midst of that.

For the saved, there is the ever-continuing epektasis -- the ever stretching forward more into the infinity of God.

But what about the lost? Jesus clearly said it was eternal (in the Gospel according to St. Matthew, in Christ's description of the Day of Judgement / the Sheep and Goats). Yet, there are reports of souls who are drawn out of hell by the prayers and penances of various saints? Yet, if hell is eternal, were those souls who were drawn out really in hell?

This is why I like the Roman Catholic concept of purgatory. I know that it's anathema to some folks, but I find it to be a very useful concept to describe change and purification after death. Namely, it allows for the eternity of heaven and hell; but it also allows for the continuation of salvation in a person's soul on the other side: not as a "place" but as a transition into heaven.

Just my ramblings.

Your thoughts?

Peace.

-- John

Yep.

John,

I don't have a problem with purgatory as state of purification after death--as you observe, it also allows for the continuation of salvation in a person's soul on the other side.

The problem I have (not that I reject the teaching per se) is with the phrase "temporal punishment due to sin." Not only is this phrase un-biblical, but the very concept seems to fail the continuity test.

Now, don't get me wrong--I do not reject the need for purification! However, we need to be purified first of all from our hidden sins (those acts whose sinfulness is unknown or unclear to us, or that we weren't even aware of doing), then from our attachment to sin (the disposition of soul by which sin still has power over us). This is not the same thing as "temporal punishment due to sin," which is defined as our debt that remains after the sin has been forgiven.

I can understand that our forgiveness may be incomplete, due to our improper disposition--particularly our unwillingness to forgive our neighbor. That makes sense, but to imply that God's forgiveness is somehow imperfect--or that we should have to atone for our own sins after they've been forgiven--just doesn't seem right.

My suspicion is that the theologians who came up with the tpdts concept really meant what I am talking about here, but they thought that phrase expressed it in a neat and clean package, whereas I don't think it does.

My rant for the day. Any thoughts?


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

Taking off from St. Gregory of Nyssa's book "From Glory to Glory" in which he teaches that our eternal home in Heaven is an ongoing journey like this one without the distractions we find here and that we will continue to perfect our relationship with Christ there, it would seem to make sense that there would be some process of purification for someone destined for eternal bliss with God the Trinity. Both the Cathlic and Orthodox Churches teach that there is some sort of process, though they differ in how it is defined. Both agree that the faithful departed can be helped by our prayers and especially by being remembered at the Divine Liturgy.

I think where we get into binds in our attempts to describe and define what and how this process of purification comes about is when we try to be linear about it: attaching our time-limited frame of reference to it. Eternity is a "now" without beginning or end. It's something we don't get to wrap our feeble heads around--and I'm only referring to myself and people like me when I say "feeble"; there are many great minds here.

That said, the purification process seems to me to be one of a one-on-one with Christ working with the believer to overcome whatever is necessary for that one to be able to have the Beatific Vision and not be destroyed. As Isaiah noted, he looked on the Face of God and knew he was undone because no one who is not pure can look on the Face of God and live, remembering that our God is a Living Fire.

So for the faithful believer, this purification may be part and parcel of his ongoing road "from glory to glory." Here I'd like to propose that Mercy is a Person--Jesus Christ--and that all mercy arises from and is His Person. He is Mercy. So when we say, "Lord, have mercy" we ask Him to wrap His eternal compassion around us and our petitions.

On the other hand, I can imagine people who have spent their lives here resisting with their whole heart, soul, minds, and strength the teachings of Christ. And it would not be a surprise to me that these folks might also continue their resistance forever. As souls move from glory to glory so also others might move from resistance to resistance.

As I stated in another thread on this subject, the believer's heart opens and is set on fire with the love of God and the two become at-one. On the other hand, the resistant one finds himself in the embrace of the Living Fire that he hates and refuses to open to. He may become burnt and ever less able to open. The difference is in our dwelling with the Living Fire of God: either we open and He warms and illumines our hearts and whole being or we resist and He sustains us in an eternal embrace that we would find a torment.

I've read that Catholic theology speaks of a "Baptism of desire" for some wherein they get a glimpse of the Divine Face and are, as it were, baptised then and there when they may not have been baptised in this life. But I would assume that these are open to such an encounter with God. What of the opposite? Would it not make sense that God would not show His Face to those who spent their lives opposed to Him so as to spare them eternal annihilation? We do know that He does not destroy His creation once created, even when a creature turns on Him--His great love is that long-suffering.

So, yes, I do believe that there are eternal consequences for us and for all that we do. Simply put, Jesus told us so. He said we'd be judged on our every thought, word, and deed. He described the Judgment of the Nations in the Gospel of St. Matthew. I think it's a product of our 20th century Western mushiness that we want to be held to no account for the aforementioned categories--no one wants to take responsibility for his actions if he can get away with it. It flies in the face of the Divine Justice, an oft-forgotten part of who this God of ours is. I simply can't believe that someone who has chosen eternal torment by their lives here would, after say 10,000 "years" in torment, decide "okay, God, I get it let's have a re-do."

In Christ,

BOB

JOHN:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

Another thought popped into my head once I logged off. Would not a second chance for those who thumbed their nose at God all their lives here offend the Divine Justice?

Think about this. It would mean that the people who had struggled to live according to God's laws would be put on the same level as those who ahd lived a life completely ignoring them or flagrantly violating them. Would this be justice?

This is not the Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard where the analogy is that of believers who work from the cradle receiving the same reward as those who convert late in life.
Does this answer the question?

BOB

One needs to know only one thing about Hell: how to avoid going there!

Fr. Serge

AMEN, Father, AMEN!!!

Despite all we may or may not do to be faithful to Christ and His teachings, all we can hope for is the great mercy of God, and alot of prayers for our souls by those who know us wouldn't hurt either.

Alice

AMEN to that.

And we should add praying for those who are already on the other side, by those of us still on this side . . .

Amen, Father Serge!

I rhink the more prayers the holy souls get the better, besides maybe they will pray for us too! We all sure need it on this side right now.