|
1 members (Fr. Al),
550
guests, and
69
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,506
Posts417,454
Members6,150
| |
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 250
Byzantine Secret Service Member
|
|
Byzantine Secret Service Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 250 |
(lets call a spade a spade) While we're at it, let's call the Greeks 'Hel lenes' Thank you for that clarification! I thought some woman named Helen was now creating rubrics, and could not understand why?  
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373 |
(lets call a spade a spade) While we're at it, let's call the Greeks 'Hel lenes' Thank you for that clarification! I thought some woman named Helen was now creating rubrics, and could not understand why? Wasn't that "Helen of Troy"??? U-C
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,231
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,231 |
You should also retract your claim of Helenicized rubrics. In this case you may have wanted Helenicized rubrics as BDW calls for procession with the Cross and its veneration (without prostrations) to take place after "Blessed be the name of the Lord..." at the end of Liturgy.
Fr. Deacon Lance I say that because is it not true that the Helenic Greek Church does not have the custom of using the tetrapod? It is not true that the Helenic Greek Church does not sing the Paschal music beyond Bright Week? Both of these are unique local "Ruthenian Recension" customs that have been in place in our Churches for many years but have now been removed. What other reason would these local customs be removed if our bishops weren't trying to make our recension resemble Helenic Greek usage???  U-C (lets call a spade a spade) Ruthenian GC churches no longer have tetrapods? It's been over a year since I have been to my former GC parish, but I doubt that the tetrapod is gone. Yes, some instances of Paschal music after Bright Week have regrettably been removed from the RDL (thanks Liturgical Commission!), but not all of them. Do these changes make the Ruthenian church more Greek or less Russian? That's still a question that I have.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264 |
What do you mean? Was the cross removed from the tetrapod after the D/L? Isn't it supposed to remain there all week? No, the Holy Cross was placed on the Tetrapod and the serving priest along with the Cantor and the congregation did sing "Krestu Tvoje" (instead of Holy God) at the proper moment in the St. Basil liturgy, but by the received Ruthenian Recension, the Holy Cross IS ALSO VENERATED A SECOND TIME AT THE END OF THE ST. BASIL LITURGY (the faithful come forth, make a profound bow and then kiss the Holy Cross). Ask any member of the Ukrainian or ACROD Church (who also use the South-West-Rus' Recension of the Constantinopolitan Partiucular Church tradition) if they do indeed venerate the Holy Cross a second time at the conclusion of the St. Basil the Great Divine Liturgy on the Third Sunday of the Great Fast. I'm positive that they still follow this particular nuance of the "Ruthenian Recension"! U-C I'm sorry...is there a "big deal" here that I am missing?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373 |
What do you mean? Was the cross removed from the tetrapod after the D/L? Isn't it supposed to remain there all week? No, the Holy Cross was placed on the Tetrapod and the serving priest along with the Cantor and the congregation did sing "Krestu Tvoje" (instead of Holy God) at the proper moment in the St. Basil liturgy, but by the received Ruthenian Recension, the Holy Cross IS ALSO VENERATED A SECOND TIME AT THE END OF THE ST. BASIL LITURGY (the faithful come forth, make a profound bow and then kiss the Holy Cross). Ask any member of the Ukrainian or ACROD Church (who also use the South-West-Rus' Recension of the Constantinopolitan Partiucular Church tradition) if they do indeed venerate the Holy Cross a second time at the conclusion of the St. Basil the Great Divine Liturgy on the Third Sunday of the Great Fast. I'm positive that they still follow this particular nuance of the "Ruthenian Recension"! U-C I'm sorry...is there a "big deal" here that I am missing? Yes, it is a big deal for those of us who have always celebrated these traditions. Others who have adopted the Ruthenian Church may not appreciate these local recension customs, but we, the indigenous members of the Ruthenian Church take them very seriously. U-C
Last edited by Ung-Certez; 03/17/09 07:19 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 250
Byzantine Secret Service Member
|
|
Byzantine Secret Service Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 250 |
Wasn't that "Helen of Troy"???
U-C Actually, I thought it might be Helen from down the street. Pesky woman keeps on rearranging things.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373 |
Duplicate post content deleted
Last edited by Father Anthony; 03/17/09 07:32 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437 Likes: 1
Administrator Member
|
|
Administrator Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437 Likes: 1 |
Let's cut out the duplicate posting right now or this thread will be closed!
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264 |
Yes, it is a big deal for those of us who have always celebrated these traditions. Others who have adopted the Ruthenian Church may not appreciate these local recension customs, but we, the indigenous members of the Ruthenian Church take them very seriously.
U-C Apart from simply beating your chest about being the "authentic" Byzantine, I still fail to see how your reaction to the second veneration of the Holy Cross warrants either the subject banner of your post or its overall tone. (Upon reading the banner, I thought they had substituted Ouzo for communion wine!) Can you provide any other reason why a second veneration would cause you to react the way you did other than "we've never done that before"? I'm all for maintaining venerable, sacred traditions, but I'm not seeing the proportionality of your reaction.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373 |
An authentic "Byzantine"? Is not a "Byzantine" an ancient inhabitant of the city of Constantinople? I can assure you that I am not a "Byzantine".
U-C
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264 |
An authentic "Byzantine"? Is not a "Byzantine" an ancient inhabitant of the city of Constantinople? I can assure you that I am not a "Byzantine".
U-C Apologies - Ukrainian Greek-Catholic. That still does not answer my question. How does venerating the Cross a second time constitute a grave offense against venerable traditions in your view? I certainly think your zeal for tradition is praiseworthy, but I am not comprehending why this particular issue "got your goat" so to speak, especially in light of the other issues the Metropolia of Pittsburgh has introduced.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 580
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 580 |
Ruthenian GC churches no longer have tetrapods? It's been over a year since I have been to my former GC parish, but I doubt that the tetrapod is gone. Yes, some instances of Paschal music after Bright Week have regrettably been removed from the RDL (thanks Liturgical Commission!), but not all of them.
Do these changes make the Ruthenian church more Greek or less Russian? That's still a question that I have. Well all Slavic Orthodox churches have tetrapods: so I think the question really is whether or not the tetrapod is stationary. In some churches the tretrapod has become a very large stationary object which is never moved.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,231
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,231 |
Ruthenian GC churches no longer have tetrapods? It's been over a year since I have been to my former GC parish, but I doubt that the tetrapod is gone. Yes, some instances of Paschal music after Bright Week have regrettably been removed from the RDL (thanks Liturgical Commission!), but not all of them.
Do these changes make the Ruthenian church more Greek or less Russian? That's still a question that I have. Well all Slavic Orthodox churches have tetrapods: so I think the question really is whether or not the tetrapod is stationary. In some churches the tretrapod has become a very large stationary object which is never moved. That's not a true statement either Miller. I can name several Ukrainian/"Russian" Orthodox churches that most certainly do not have tetrapods. I think that the larger issue here is that something changed at the church that U-C attended this year on the Sunday of the Cross and he is upset. Ung, why not ask the priest who made the change or the parishioners that no longer "do" what they did before? Spouting off here won't solve the problem. I have to agree with Fr. Lance, there is nothing stopping people from venerating the Cross after the liturgy if that's what they're used to doing, unless the priest stands up and says not to. And finally, if the Ruthenian church can only be understood by real "indigenous" Ruthenians, and anyone else "doesn't get it," then you've done your job, for this Polish interlopper (and his children) left your church over a year ago.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373 |
Ruthenian GC churches no longer have tetrapods? It's been over a year since I have been to my former GC parish, but I doubt that the tetrapod is gone. Yes, some instances of Paschal music after Bright Week have regrettably been removed from the RDL (thanks Liturgical Commission!), but not all of them.
Do these changes make the Ruthenian church more Greek or less Russian? That's still a question that I have. Well all Slavic Orthodox churches have tetrapods: so I think the question really is whether or not the tetrapod is stationary. In some churches the tretrapod has become a very large stationary object which is never moved. That's not a true statement either Miller. I can name several Ukrainian/"Russian" Orthodox churches that most certainly do not have tetrapods. I think that the larger issue here is that something changed at the church that U-C attended this year on the Sunday of the Cross and he is upset. Ung, why not ask the priest who made the change or the parishioners that no longer "do" what they did before? Spouting off here won't solve the problem. I have to agree with Fr. Lance, there is nothing stopping people from venerating the Cross after the liturgy if that's what they're used to doing, unless the priest stands up and says not to. And finally, if the Ruthenian church can only be understood by real "indigenous" Ruthenians, and anyone else "doesn't get it," then you've done your job, for this Polish interlopper (and his children) left your church over a year ago. I'm sorry, but we have every right to defend our local "Ruthenian Recension" liturgical and para-liturgical traditions. If no bishop or priest is going to defend these traditions, then we the faithful have no other choice but to defend them to the tee. U-C
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 424
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 424 |
I was at a Ukie church that day, and they venerated the cross twice.
|
|
|
|
|
