www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!!

My point exactly. The Ukrainian and the ACROD Churches most certainly have kept this tradition, as it is part of the "Ruthenian Recension" tradition. Just as is the custom at the end of a funeral the priest presents the Holy Cross and the faithful come up and kiss the priest's hand cross. By tradition, when ever the Holy Cross is presented, the faithful come forth and venerate it.

U-C

But the issue you choose to defend so vehemently is very much like swatting a fly with a sledge hammer. The fact that someone venerates a cross twice in a service is hardly an issue to be so concerned about, not while whole portions of our liturgies are being deleted, our worship is very often spoken not sung, some parishes do not even have an iconostasis, the Baptists are very active in recruiting our faithful - especially the young - away from their faith tradition and bribing them with money, homes, jobs, etc etc.

You are talking about the right to complain about small things. I am talking about issues pertaining to our identity and survival as a Church. I would think your keen mind which I have seen demonstrated here on many occasions and your zeal could be better applied to something more constructive.

Meanwhile, I think I will have some Ouzo.

I would not be surprised to learn that the veneration of the cross after the Divine Liturgy is forbidden. Father Petras said that prostrations and singing "Having suffered" at the end of Presanctified is wrong because you have received communion and should not prostrate with the Body and Blood inside you. Is he saying the same thing about prostrating or bowing before the cross after receiving communion? Someone should ask him and report back.

You may think so, but I do not.

U-C

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

This is an interesting theory. Under this theory, the Christian should never prostrate himself--ever. The Body and Blood of Christ is absorbed into ever fiber of our being and doesn't just disappear in our digestive tract. So even if I commit sin, Christ doesn't leave me even though He may be somehow "walled off." There's a story in the Desert Fathers who renounced his monk's vow and his baptism but who the Enemy could still not touch because it was said that "his God has not abandoned him." So the man repented and was restored to grace. Similarly, our God does not abandon us even when we sin. We just need to remember to humble ourselves like the Prodigal Son and turn again to His mercy.

In the meantime, we still do reverences, whether they be prostrations, bows, genuflections, crossing ourselves, because we meet the Lord on so many levels and in so many contexts. These are acts of humility that we do even when we carry Him inside us as the Chalice carries Him.

Oh well, another liturgist; another terrorist. The latter you can negotiate with; the former . . .

In Christ,

BOB

Not at all. One does not prostrate oneself immediately after receiving the Eucharist. If the canons tell us not to kneel on Sunday how much more should we not prostrate after receiving the Eucharist. I think this something that is adhered to by the great majority of Orthodox and if this praxis is making its way back among us Greek Catholics so much the better.

Now I am not one who thinks pews and kneelers need to be ripped out and I do believe one can kneel in adoration rather than repentance. However, the prostration is intimately connected with the penitential spirit of the Great Fast accompanying the Prayer of St. Ephrem a well as the Great Canon of Repentance of St. Andrew of Crete.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Not among the Orthodox in Eastern Europe, as they still kneel on Sundays.

U-C

Russian Rubrics:

http://www.saintjonah.org/rub/takingoutofthecross.htm

By definition a "tetrapod" is a small 4 legged table. Here in North America in many Ukrainian Orthodox churches, the tetrapod has become a very large stationary item. By that I mean it does not move from its appointed spot.

But as you have said, not all churches have stationary large tetrapods. When visiting Ukraine, I also noted that the tetrapod was more often not stationary. However, when there was a panakhyda or Litiya the tetrapod, which really was a very small 4 legged table was brought out and placed in front of the iconostasis. Just because it is not as visible as a stationary over-large tetrapod does not mean it does not exist.

See: Archpriest D.Sokolof, (1917), A Manual of the Orthodox Church's Divine Services, Jordanville NY: Printshop of St. Job of Pochaev (reprint, 2001).

Now this is the Great Russian Recension usage, so it would different from the South-West Rus'(i.e. Ruthenian) Recension

U-C

For what it's worth, current "Hellenic" parish practice is very different from the way the Churches of Rus' observe the Veneration and Elevation of the Cross.

First, in parish practice, the short offices of the Veneration and the Elevation are taken at the conclusion of the Divine Liturgy rather than at the conclusion of Matins. This is done in order to allow more, usually tardy, faithful to participate. The Cross is displayed vertically, not horizontally. On September 14, it is surrounded by basil; during Lent, flowers tend to be used. After the dismissal of the Liturgy, the people come forward to venerate the Cross which is held by the priest--not left stationary on the table--and receive a portion of the flowers/basil.

Dave

HAPPY BIRTHDAY CHTEC. GOD GRANT YOU MANY YEARS!

That is the way it is done at St. George.

I was refering to prostrating not kneeling.

Fr. Deacon Lance

U-C,

Again I ask you to retract the claim of Hellenization as both the Melkites and Greeks actually do have veneration of the Cross at the end of Liturgy. Pretty hard to claim not doing it is in imitation of them. In the future do your homework before making silly statements.

Fr. Deacon Lance