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Joined: Jan 2007
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With all due respect returned, while it is certainly not a statement of full Eucharistic communion it does not make any sense for any Church to recommend the translations of a Church it does consider to be "legitimate". The message is not consistent nor clear.

If the Liturgy is the place of receiving the Holy Mysteries as well as the place of transmitting the immutable truth of Orthodoxy, again recommending the books of a Church which you have oppined the leader to be a layman does not make sense.

I don't follow your argument..... At all. Again, the fact that someone did a nice translation does not in any way legitimize the so called Patriarch who is in fact an excomunicated laymen.

As of the relationship of the UOCC, I am not the man to ask, but I was in the inter-Church relations group at the last UOCUSA Sobor where his Beatitude Metropolitan John of Canada stressed the fact that Ukraine does in fact have a canonical Church headed by Volodyka Volodymir Sabodan. Finally, I once again submit the fact that none of our clergy are allowed concelebrate with KP. I am pretty sure Canada being under the Ecumenical Patriarch has the same prohibition.

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This interpretation of history does not appear to be shared by many in the UOC-KP nor the recent large influx of parishes or clergy who have moved from the UOAC to the UOC-KP. While I indeed believe Patriarch Mystyslav had mixed feelings and even misgivings about +Filaret, to say they had no relation or refused him to serve does not appear to be the case.

Actually, it is a well known fact that Filaret prohibited Vladyka Mstyslav of blessed memory from serving a panakhida at Shevchenko's grave. Everyone at our Church knows it. Everyone in MP knows it. Your denial does not make this fact untrue. Apparently you are uninformed. Perhaps this is because you are not actually in the UOCUSA and haven't any idea of the relationship of our Church and KP... Further, I can not speak for the UAOC, nor can I say much about the feelings of the brothers and sisters who unfortunately belong to KP, because I belong to neither one of those organizations. I belong to the CANONICAL Ukrainian Church under the omophor of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

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It is more a question of freedom of conscience to worship where and how one desires instead of "petty fighting". And the increasing majority of Ukrainians are making that choice. When the churches were "united" except for a very small minority of UAOC parishes the MP would not grant autocephaly. It seems rather facile to think it will ever be granted, and certainly Metropolitan Vladimir, united church or not, will not be the one to ask of it.

Absolutely. People are free to worship where they will, and the Orthodox Church is free not to accept them or recognize them as a part of Ecumenical Orthodoxy. Hey, there are people who choose to worship with Jehovah's Witnesses. I will even say a prayer for those poor souls, however please do not tell me that the Orthodox Church needs to recognize the validity of their sacraments.

Your attitude towards Vladyka Volodymyr is also rather offensive. I was born and grew up in Ukraine. I also know many a person from western Ukraine who were helped tremendously by His Beatitude. He has done more for Ukraine before AND after the fall of the Iron Curtain than all the pseudo heirarchs of pseudo Churches put together. I remind you that he was ELECTED by his brother Bishops of the Ukrainian Church after all but 2 of them refused to follow the current leader of KP into a schism. If there is one person who can in fact lead Ukraine towards autocephally it is His Beatitude.

Quote
I don't deny that schism is a terrible thing. But in reality no one was "ripped away" from anything - when given the chance to freely choose they have done so and are continuing to do so. As I mentioned your own UOC-USA also did not renew her usual annual condemnation of the UOC-KP activity within the US.

The opinion of the lack of a "valid sacramental life" is not one universally shared in Orthodoxy. Which gets back to my original point - why would the liturgical books of a church that denies "a valid sacramental life" be recommended for use?

My own UOCUSA did not renew her usual annual condemnation of the UOC-KP... Yes. That is correct. That must have been because the UOC-KP ceased and desisted from trying to tear parishes away from our Church, right? Nope... No such luck. Filaret is still holding on to our Parish in Carteret NJ. If our Bishops did not condemn their action it was because of their genuine wish not to cause anymore pain to a number of our parishioners who were tricked into joining KP.

I don't really know where you are getting the "difference of opinion" on sacramental validity. Perhaps ot would be best to refrain from making such inflammatory statements, because there clearly is not a "difference of opinion", but rather a very clear understanding of canonicity and sacramental legitimacy in the Orthodox Church.

Also in a previous post you claimed that Vladyka Filaret "left a comfortable post" in MP. This is hardly the case. Due to various allegations including the allegation of him fathering children after having taking monastic vows the Moscow Patriarchate asked him to step away from his post as Metropolitan of Kyiv. Filaret agreed to this, and he swore that he would do so on a Gospel and a Cross. When he returned to Kyiv, he refused to leave his post, rather he caused a schism in the Church. I think it is also worth mentioning that only 2 Bishops followed him into the schism.

Finally I will just recount a short story which my Parish Priest told me. He was a part of the delegation from Western Ukraine that went to beg Filaret to lead the Ukrainian Church to autocephally. Filaret set the delegation down and when he heard why they came, he jumped up from his chair, put two fingers in the air and stated that such a "Petljurovska and Benderovska" cerkva has never existed and will never exist in Ukraine.

Believe me this short story is not only such display of "patriotism" that came from the current leader of KP. He was the one who suspended and gave penance to priests and deacons for using Hospodi Pomiluj instead of Gospodi Pomiluj.


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I humbly apologize to anyone I have offended in my posts on this thread.

I assure I was sincere, but I will not be posting to this thread anymore.

This is not good for our lent.

Again, forgive me.

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Dearest in Christ,

As those of you who have read any of my messages will know, I am not good at condensing my thoughts. I therefore ask your patience, as I try to share my perspective on some of the points raised above, including some of the specific details given by Subdeacon Borislav.


1. Concelebration

Although my memory is that in the original agreement between the hierarchy of the UOC-USA and the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the US hiearchs did promise not to concelebrate with any Ukrainian church claiming to be autocephalous, that provision fell, at least in practice, "into oblivion" very quickly.

In 2002, Archbishop Antony officially confirmed that "the UOC-U.S.A. clergy are allowed to concelebrate liturgy with the clergy of any Orthodox Church in Ukraine" ( http://www.ukrweekly.com/old/archive/2002/520208.shtml ), and when I first met Bishop (then Priest) Daniel in 2006, he told me very clearly that in Ukraine he would never celebrate with anyone from the UOC-MP, but only with the UOC-KP and UAOC clergy.

I personally have concelebrated with UOC-USA clergy at four UOC-USA churches in two states, and I know that in at least three of those instances this was cleared in advance by the bishop or dean. Clergy from the UOC-USA do concelebrate with UOC-KP clergy in Ukraine, and in the US.

Therefore, while it is true that there is no formal communion between the UOC-USA and the UOC-KP, I do not believe it is correct to write that it is a "fact that none of our [UOC-USA] clergy are allowed concelebrate with KP".


2. Election of Hieararchs

Metropolitan Filaret (1991)

After Ukraine regained independence in 1991, a national Sobor of the UOC (the newly renamed ROC archdiocese in Ukraine) was held over three days in November 1991. This Sobor had been called five months in advance, in accordance with all rules of the UOC constitution, and was attended by all UOC bishops, clergy and lay delegates of every diocese, and representatives of all monasteries, seminaries, and recognized lay brotherhoods. The Sobor was televised so that a record exists. In addition to unanimously passing a resolution stating that going forward the UOC would operate as an autocephalous church, the Sobor also affirmed the church's desire to be led by Metropolitan Filaret.

Metropolitan Vladimir (1992)

The UOC Synod communicated this decision to the ROC Synod, asking that it give its final blessing on this legal decision, and also called upon the UAOC to unite with the UOC. The ROC Synod ignored the resolution of the UOC Sobor for some time, and then in 1992, took two actions, the first being secretly organizing a "Synod" in the border city of Kharkiv at which, behind closed doors, a number of bishops of the UOC recanted their votes and elected Bishop Vladimir (the ROC representative in Ukraine, and therefore not even a UOC bishop) as Metroplitan of Kyiv.

Patriarch Filaret (1995)

In 1992 a Unification Sobor was held between the UAOC and that portion of the UOC which remained loyal to Metropolitan Philaret. Most bishops in the UOC did not attend (although more than "two" did), and a portion of the UAOC delegates refused to participate, most citing their unwillingness to work with Metropolitan Filaret and other bishops from the Soviet Era. Those delegates that did attend formed the UOC-KP under Patriarch Mystyslav, who formally accepted this structure under his protection. Hence, from this time there were three churches, the UAOC (which subsequently split into three entities), the UOC(MP) (the church with the most buildings), and the UOC-KP (the church with greatest popular support).

Upon the repose of Patriarch Mystyslav in 1993, the Sobor elected Volodymyr (Romaniuk) as the second Patriarch of Kyiv (Archbishop Antony of the UOC-USA was also a candidate), and in 1995, after the death of the second Patriarch of Kyiv, Volodymyr, Metropolitan Filaret was elected Patriarch by a vote of 160 to 5.

However one may feel about Patriarch Filaret or Metropolitan Vladimir, those representing the majority of Orthodox in Ukraine twice elected Patriarch Filaret in open free elections.


3. "Swearing on Gospel and Cross"

This, one of the most oft-repeated accusations, has been denied by both Patriarch Filaret and Bishop Yakiw, who was also present on April 2 1992 Synod meeting, and has never once been confirmed by anyone actually at that meeting. This story has, at the very least, evolved over time:

The minutes of the April 2, 1992 ROC Synod themselves state that the Holy Synod had resolved that: “The Council of Bishops took into account the statement of the Most Reverend Filaret, Metropolitan of Kyiv and of All-Ukraine, that for the sake of church peace, at the next Council of Bishops of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, he will submit a request to be relieved from the position of the Primate of the UOC. Understanding of the position of Metropolitan Filaret, the Council of Bishops expressed to him its gratitude for the long period of labor as Archbishop of the See of Kyiv and blessed him to serve as Archbishop at another cathedral of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.”

Then, a month later, after the Kyiv Synod had rejected Metropolitan Philaret's resignation and re-affirmed him has legitimate Primate of the UOC, the minutes of the meeting of the Full Synod of the ROC of May 7, 1992 indicate that a report was received stating that: “Metropolitan Filaret agreed with the criticism addressed to him and, before the Cross and the Holy Gospel, gave his word as a bishop, that he would convene in Kyiv the Council of Bishops of the UOC, at which he will submit a petition of his retirement from the position of the Primate.” This was the first time that there was any mention of "swearing" "before the Cross and the Holy Gospel". Who provided this report is not indicated, nor, as I note above, has anyone actually present ever come forward to either support or deny this statement.


4. Two General Thoughts

This opinion expressed by Fr. Ihor Kutash of the UOCC in 2006 seems to accurately reflect the attitude that I personally have most often encountered among Ukrainian Orthodox Faithful in the United States:

"I should also note, particularly with regard to the Ukrainian Orthodox communions, that all is not quite as it seems. As regards canonicity we are in communion with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOCMP) which is in the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow, but we are much more in sympathy with the other two branches of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - the Kyivan Patriarchate (UOCKP) and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) which although as yet separate from each other, nonetheless hold a view common to ours, i.e. that the Church of Ukraine ought to be one, in communion with world Orthodoxy and headed by its own canonically elected Patriarch rather than dependent upon the Patriarch of another Orthodox Church. We find it particularly tragic that the Church of Ukraine should be dependent upon Moscow which has pursued or supported a policy of subjugation and assimilation quite in keeping with the politics of colonialism and imperialism but not in the interests of the people of Ukraine." ( http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/questions/2006/jurisdiction.htm )

For the benefit of those who like numbers, the most recent independent survey of the Ukrainian population, one conducted in June and July of 2007 by the Ukrainian Sociological Service, Ukrainians identified their own church affiliation as follows:

UOC-KP 32.4%
Non-religious 23.0%
UOC-MP 20.9%
Greek Catholic 10.3%
Believer, but no affiliation 9.7%
"Other" 1.8%
UAOC 0.8%
Roman Catholic 0.6%
Protestants 0.2%
Jewish 0.1%
Muslim 0.0% (less than 0.1%)


5. "Poaching"

There are many Ukrainian Orthodox in the United States, especially those who devoted their lives to keeping alive the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church in the Diaspora, who feel that the UOC-USA should have remained under Kyiv, or at least stood back while calling for the unity of the UAOC and UOC-KP, rather than taking the step that Patriarch Mystyslav always rejected, renouncing autocephaly and submitting to Constantinople, Moscow, or Syosset. The majority of Faithful in Clifton are among these, and have resisted attempts by the UOC-USA to gain control of their church. I do not see how anyone was "tricked" or "poached", and it was Bound Brook, not Kyiv or Clifton, that filed suits in civil courts.


6. Plea to Subdeacon Borislav

I see that you are from west Ukraine; my father is from Volyn (the cathedral in Lutsk was among the first to join the UOC-KP), and my mother from L'viv, so some of our relatives may be neighbors.

My brother in Christ, you make a number of other accusations, most of which I read for the first time. Unlike some of your other statements, such as those I comment on above, I am not certain how much weight to give these. Like all who became bishops in the Soviet Union, Patriarch Filaret has a history, but the Orthodox Faithful, the Holy Synod, and the Sobors of the UOC-KP, who represent the majority of our Orthodox brothers and sisters in Ukraine, have by now had ample chance to weigh every accusation; that is enough for me.

We may disagree about some things, but I strongly believe that the overwhelming majority of the Faithful in the UOC-USA, UOC-KP, UAOC, and UOC-MP (and UGCC!) are good Christians, each trying to decide what is best based on the limited perspective each of us has. It is possible that what is best in Boston or Bound Brook may not be best for Clifton, or Tokyo, or Lutsk, or Kyiv. As we all do pray for the unity of our church, let us try to be respectful and civil, so that, if God in His mercy heals this schism while we both are yet alive on this Earth, we can go forward from there, rather than revive old wounds.


Again, I apologize for my inability to write things briefly.


Yours in Christ,

(Rev.) Paul Koroluk,
St. Jude Ukrainian Orthodox Mission, Tokyo
http://www.stjude.jp


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Some will feel disenfranchised, I fear, by not having the opportunity of yet another round of responses. However, everyone appears to have had their say at least once and the passions aroused among our Ukrainian brethren by it, following up on what Subdeacon Borislav said above, are not conducive to the intended spirit of Lent.

So, with thanks to all who presented or defended their points of view, this thread is closed.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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