www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP

Are these done yet?
If they are, does anyone know where I can pick up a copy of the Trebnik and Sluzhebnik?

Thanks in advance.

You don't seem to have listed any books. If you know of any published by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate, please tell me and I'll try to have someone chase them down. The bookshop at the Monastery of the Caves would probably stock them.

Fr. Serge

Father, that came across wrong. I was actually trying to find out if the translations of the Trebnik and Sluzhebnik is done yet.

Dear Subdeacon Borislav,

So far all that I've seen, even in draft form, is a Ukrainian translation of the Sluzhebnik (it's far too free a translation). I'd like to find the UOC-MP's version of the service to Saint Peter (Mohyla).

I also would like to find complete editions of the eventual translations - the Kyiv Patriarchate has published some good books, but such volumes as the Trebnyk, the Octoechos, the Menaion, and the two Triodia are drastically abbreviated, darn it. Their Chinovnik isn't bad - it seems to be a straight translation of the last Moscow edition (from the eighties, I think).

Fr. Serge

I have the KP Trebnik. It is not bad imo, but I'd prefer to MP one...

I guess I have been out of the loop.
I did not kow that the UOC-MP uses modern Ukrainian rather than Church Slavonic to clebrate the liturgy. Good news, but I surprised that there is not opposition from the Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine.

Also regarding Petro Mohyla. Has the UOC-MP lifted the excommunication placed on Petro Mohyla by the MP?

I was not aware of this event either.

I'm not aware that the Moscow Patriarchate ever attempted to excommunicate Metropolitan Peter (Mohyla) - would have been tricky, since he belonged to the Ecumenical Patriarchate (and so did the Church in Ukraine at the time).

As to the canonization, remarkably enough all three "jurisdictions" in Ukraine canonized him at almost the same time - in separate ceremonies, of course. Moscow authorized its Ukrainian Orthodox Church to do the canonization. The Church of Romania promptly seconded the motion, so to speak. Metropolitan Volodymyr kindly gave me an icon-reproduction of Saint Peter.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate does not enforce the use of Ukrainian everywhere, but there are places where it is a pastoral necessity.

So it goes.

As to the Trebnyk, there are several Ukrainian editions in circulation: the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada produced a two-volume Trebnyk; the Orthodox Church in Poland produced a smaller Trebnyk in Ukrainian during the inter-war period; I think that Bound Brook produced a Trebnyk sometime or other, the Greek-Catholics produced one in the early nineteen-seventies, and there is the one produced recently by the Kyiv Patriarchate.

Rumor has it that the Greek-Catholics are working on what is to be a much longer Trebnyk in Ukrainian, based on the Stauropegion edition of the nineteen-twenties and the Trebnyk produced by Saint Peter (Mohyla) just before his repose.

I don't know what exactly is available in Byelorusian at the moment.

Some bits and pieces are informally in circulation in Russian, but the Moscow Patriarchate is not at all anxious to encourage the use of modern Russian. Strange, actually; the Patriarchate allowed the use of modern Russian to some parishes reconciled from the "Living Church" groups, but gradually . . .

Fr. Serge

My mistake, I was thinking of Ivan Mazepa. I was reading on Interfax, objections to a new award or metal iniated by President Yushchenko and how 2009 is the year of Ivan Mazepa. The article mentioned that Ivan mazepa was excommunicated.
Does this still apply to the UOC-MP? I guess president Yushchenko will not be awarding the "Ivan Mazepa" metal to Metropolitan Volodymyr (UOC-mp)!

But I am glad to read that Ukrainian is being used by

Dearl Halia.

The UOC uses both Ukrainian and Church Slavonic depending on the needs of particular parishes. In Eastern Ukraine you will find Church Slavonic. In Western and some parts of Central Ukraine you will find more parishes using vernacular Ukrainian.

Further the translation that will be coming from the UOC at least for the Gospel will be far superior to the KP version, simply because the KP version is a translation from Russian. The translation being worked on by the UOC is actually a translation from Greek.

I was wondering what was wrong with the translation of the Bible by the late Metropolitan Hilarion? He was a philologist and specialized in Biblical languages such as Hebrew and Greek.
Is the whole Bible being translated into modern Ukrainian or just the Gospel and Epistle readings for the services?

I apologize but I am ill equipped to answer that particular question brother, perhaps Father Serge can talk about the translation of Metropolitan Hilarion.

Metropolitan Hilarion (previously Professor Ivan Ohienko) did indeed know his stuff linguistically and as early as the nineteen-twenties was producing learned articles on various problems of translating Biblical and liturgical texts.

The first translation of the complete Bible into Ukrainian, however, did not appear until the nineteen-sixties when the Basilians (!) produced one. This seems odd, since the Orthodox certainly use the "deutero-canonical" books (that is, the books which are in the LXX but not in the Masoretic text). One can only assume that there was a Protestant influence somewhere.

If the Moscow Patriarchate is really translating straight from Greek into Ukrainian, I look forward to the results. Just before the celebrations in 1988, the Moscow Patriarchate published a Ukrainian New Testament - which was translated directly from the unoriginal Russian. Not to be outdone, Filaret has since published an entire Bible translated from the unoriginal Russian (aside from the amusement value, it is worth having).

Patriarch Joseph the Confessor, of holy memory, was convinced that the Church-Slavonic tradition was sufficiently different from the modern Greek tradition that services-books should be translated into Ukrainian from Church-Slavonic. He had a point, but his conclusion is still problematic.

De gustibus non est disputandum!

Fr. Serge

Well, the Ukrainian translation by Metropolitan Hilarion Ohienko was funded by the British and Foreign Bible Society, a Protestant Group. His translation & association with the Society began in the iner-war period. I have a booklet somewhere about Metropolitan's Hilarion's Bible translation and it mentions that a significant group of Ukrainian Baptist ministers were on the Bible Society's committee and they caused considerable problems for Metropolitan Hilarion. In addition it was not the policy of the Bible Society to translate the "deutero-canonical" books at that time.
I was talking to my priest this morning after the Presantified Liturgy & he agreed with the comments about translating from the Church Slavonic. Our priest is from the Orthodox Church of Poland and he has graduate degrees from the Theological Academy.

The Studites through Svichado produced a Trebnik generally rendered from the Rome Maly Trebnik a few years ago, nicely bound and done.

I am not aware of a Bound Brook Trebnyk...

I will check when I am there for St. Thomas Sunday in a couple of weeks.