[...] On the Orthodox witness to America, one should beware of getting too close to the popular culture, lest one be captured by it. The "otherness" of Orthodoxy is one of its attractions, and to abandon that wholesale in order better to fit in will only convert Orthodoxy to a slightly more exotic form of evangelicalism.
You are right, but I think what his Beatitude wants is a Church that knows the culture well enough to appreciate what is good in it and condemn what is evil in it.
On the Orthodox witness to America, one should beware of getting too close to the popular culture, lest one be captured by it. The "otherness" of Orthodoxy is one of its attractions, and to abandon that wholesale in order better to fit in will only convert Orthodoxy to a slightly more exotic form of evangelicalism.
Absolutely...and the particular 'ethnic' culture can be transplanted by a different 'ethnic' culture--that of America...
In a world, which anyone who has travelled outside of the country will know, where 'Americanism' (or 'globalization' or whatever one wants to call it) is suppressing individual cultures, we don't need even more of it to encroach upon the unique individualism of our Orthodox churches. The OCA is already Americanized enough, with a healthy dose of its previous Slavic roots...is this not enough for Metropolitan Jonah? Is the English language not enough?
Unfortunately, everything he says, including the 'put downs' and offensive 'epithets' about the Ecumenical Patriarch, were attempted as a rabble rouse by the OCL (paraclessial group: Orthodox Christian Laity) years ago on the internet and other venues, and have failed. People saw how unChristian this approach was and it repelled souls rather than convinced them.
How about letting God do and lead where He will...This only shows how truly immature we really are. One Orthodox hierarch calling another a 'foreign despot'..now that's spiritual maturity for you! OOOF!
May our Lord God have mercy on us sinners and suppress our sinful passions and help us keep guard over our lips.... Amen!
Alice
P.S. Perhaps the good Metropolitan, God bless him and keep him, should read the excerpt I posted from Elder Porphyrios on 'dispositions of the heart'!
Metropolitan Jonah's speech did not come out of nowhere. He was responding to a speech given by the Chief Secretary of the Ecumenical Patriarchate attacking Met. Jonah by name, as well as Met. Philip, and using very insulting and derogatory terminology for both of them. He called the OCA uncanonical, and said that the only possibility for unity is for everyone to submit to the Ecumenical Patriarch.
I seem to recall it, but do not remember the personal insults.
I am sorry--I am hearing echoes of OCL (the lovely group who 'ousted an archbishop' with slander of horrible proportions, sued another Archbishop in court over a charter, etc.) and tried to do the same (oust)to the Ecumenical Patriarch...as they said that he 'stood in the way' of an American Orthodox Church.
The exact same epithets used in those 'campaigns' have opened up closed wounds. It was very unfortunate that the good Metropolitan chose to use them as his own. Lord have mercy!
Some of us have been saddened by the lack of spiritual maturity exhibited in ALL of our jurisdictions by laity and clergy so thank God that we are not on our own.
I will not abandon the ancient seat of Constantinople. Period.
Alice
P.S. Christ told us to turn the other cheek and to pray earnestly for our enemies. Such rhetoric on either part then is not the rhetoric of the holy saints. Saints never speak against anyone.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner! 'Nough said...this is not a good thread for Lent and for our souls. It scandalizes and we are scandalizing each other.
Please don't denounce me for "phyletism", but I take the view that Eastern Orthodoxy's remarkable ability to become inculturated in a wide variety of cultures, to the point that some cultures become "traditionally Orthodox", has serious value - the usual fear of "tribalism" strikes me as downright ludicrous.
Might it perhaps be of help if the advocates of "American Orthodoxy" would tell us what they have in mind? Hot dogs? Baseball games? MacDonald's? Dude ranches? The Steelers? Clambakes? Secular schools?
The fact that you don't recall anything that was said in Fr. Elpidophoros's speech being insulting might say a good deal about where you stand on the whole thing.
There was no necessity of Fr. Elpidophoros giving such an inflammatory speech during the Great Fast, insulting various American hierarchs and calling the OCA "uncanonical" and saying that it was only through it's great mercy that the Greeks continued to allow the laity of the OCA to receive communion.
I do not agree with everything that Met. Jonah says and I am not an advocate of having a completely independent American Orthodox Church at this stage.
Still, the rhetoric did not start with His Beatitude. It makes sense for the primate of the OCA to defend his Church when it is attacked as uncanonical.
If we are called not to judge others and if saints never speak against one another, then that should apply equally to all. And above all, during this Holy Fast, we should "seek peace and pursue it."
"You are right, but I think what his Beatitude wants is a Church that knows the culture well enough to appreciate what is good in it and condemn what is evil in it."
That is laudable and necessary. However, one can really only be a critic of the culture by being outside of the culture. This is one reason why Evangelicalism has failed in its attempt to transform American culture--it IS American culture, therefore it can offer no alternative.
The Latin Church here, to some extent, has been captured by American culture, which is why it has a hard time being counter-cultural. This was to some extent deliberate; the 19th century bishops wanted to make the Catholics into good Americans, but keep them apart from American culture. Therefore they cultivated what they considered "good" or virtuous elements and tried to wall off their people from the "bad" elements. With the collapse of stable, urban communities after World War II, their experiment in social control failed catastrophically. The American psyche, so fundamentally Protestant (hence individualistic) took over lock, stock and barrel. Thus, Samuel Huntington was able to characterize American Catholics as "Protestants who go to Mass and like Mary"--as compared to what one finds in Europe, there is no "American Catholic culture".
Such rhetoric on either part then is not the rhetoric of the holy saints.
Please read more carefully!
Thanks!
All this anomosity could have fooled me...St. Vlad's Seminary and the Greek churches in my area have a VERY good relationship of sharing deacons, priests, professors, etc, and of mutual respect and love.
--I just reread the EP's representative's speech. He disputes claims of Met. Jonah and Met. Phillip in a matter of fact manner, but nowhere, nowhere, does he resort to name calling and epithets.... I reiterate, the epithets used by Met. Jonah will backfire on him. They are *EXACTLY* the same one's used by OCL, a group which for the above stated reasons (in my previous post) has lost the respect of countless Orthodox. I am not a political person. I despise church politics, especially because of the OCL. I respect Met. Johah and rejoice to see such a fresh, young, American face lead the OCA--a church I admire thanks to my proximity to St. Vladimir Seminary. I pray, truly pray, that he cease this 'war of epithets'...only the evil one rejoices in name calling. He could have expressed his same sentiments without using words of scandal. Language is a very powerful tool--especially the English language which we all aspire to hear more of in our churches in the U.S.!!!
I am interested in the concept of inculturation. No doubt Orthodoxy can be inculturated in America as well. However, there is a complicating factor in that it is probably not accurate to talk about one "American culture" in the same way that we would refer to "Russian culture" or "French culture" or "German culture" or "Spanish culture." Many different cultures are contributing to American culture -- including native American, European, African and Asian ones.
What should be the role of the Orthodox Churches in this composite and evolving American culture? What is the right balance between keeping your ancestral immigrant roots and being a local American Orthodox Church, open to everyone regardless of cultural background? And what is the right relationship between the daughter churches in America and their mother churches in "the old country"?
And for how long are we going to continue talking about some Churches being in the "diaspora" when in fact all Christians are pilgrims on the way to our heavenly fatherland? For example, the Catholic Church in my country is tiny, but I don't see myself as a "diaspora Catholic." Nor should Orthodox Christians in America need to see themselves as "diaspora Orthodox." Instead, I believe that they should seek to make their presence known and show that while they are different and may seem foreign, they have something wonderful to offer to everyone.
The fact that you don't recall anything that was said in Fr. Elpidophoros's speech being insulting might say a good deal about where you stand on the whole thing.
Personally speaking, though I believe Fr. Elpidophoros was right about many things, I think he made some unwise remarks. I don't think they're anything like what the ruling metropolitan of the OCA said though. Like Alice, I stand by Constantinople, and it has stood by my church and helped protect it, ironically from changes that would have come through absorption in the Metropolia/OCA. It has also helped us to avoid the recent scandals there. Thankfully, from everything I have heard from our clergy we have no intention of abandoning Constantinople.
One thing I will say is I'm glad Metropolitan Jonah has woken up to the problem of uncanonical situations, foreign domination and the need for local language. Hopefully that is a message he will take back to Moscow and Patriarch Kyrill and is something Metropolitan Jonah would forcefully drive home in standing up for an independent church in Ukraine as he does for North America.
In regard to Fr. Serge's post about dude ranches, etc. LOL!
It seems to me that no Church whose bishops are members of SCOBA (the Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas) can be uncanonical!
Instead of calling one Church or another uncanonical, perhaps it would be better to say that the current situation of competing "jurisdictions" is uncanonical, or at least irregular?
Please don't denounce me for "phyletism", but I take the view that Eastern Orthodoxy's remarkable ability to become inculturated in a wide variety of cultures, to the point that some cultures become "traditionally Orthodox", has serious value - the usual fear of "tribalism" strikes me as downright ludicrous.
Might it perhaps be of help if the advocates of "American Orthodoxy" would tell us what they have in mind? Hot dogs? Baseball games? MacDonald's? Dude ranches? The Steelers? Clambakes? Secular schools?
The list could easily become a lot worse.
Fr. Serge
I think phyletism does manifest itself periodically in very concrete ways, and it can and does strangle the Church's apostolic vision and life IF it is allowed to be an overused strength, strangling local missionary initiatives.
But very clearly The Steelers do not belong in the American Orthodox Church.
The Dallas Cowboys, on the other hand, certainly would fit in with the dude ranch theme...!
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that Metropolitan Jonah is an idealistic and visionary leader who has quickly become quite disillusioned by the situation of Orthodoxy in North America.
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that Metropolitan Jonah is an idealistic and visionary leader who has quickly become quite disillusioned by the situation of Orthodoxy in North America.
Normal disillusionment, at one time or another, is something we all feel about many things, our lives, our families, our careers and jobs, our government...and it also can include our faiths, our clerics, our church communities, and even our spiritual lives...
Disillusionment in a young, impressionable and innocent hearted person can easily be manipulated by those who are not so young, impressionable, and innocent...and those who might be so inclined to do so for alliances which will serve their own goals and purposes.
Do these goals and purposes truly serve salvation for the souls of all? Or have idealistic goals and purposes turned into selfish and egotistical ones? Is the idea of an American church as better than one which has roots in the Old World a righteous goal which serves all? Or is it a self righteous goal? Orthodoxy in America has to offer salvation to immigrants, new and old, from Europe and former Communist countries, to American born generations of ethnic backgrounds, to American born generations of non-ethnic backgrounds, to those reared in it from the cradle and those reared in it in adulthood.
Disillusionment, when manipulated, can lead to despair. Orthodoxy tells us that despair is a sin and is of the evil one.
The only way to combat despair (and the sins that also flow from it) according to the holy spiritual saints and elders is by prayer, fasting and prostration.
No one should be disillusioned or brought to despair in a country where we have the freedom to worship our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, in beautiful temples, openly and without fear...
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