www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Speech of Metropolitan Jonah

I read the whole thing, several times, when it was released. I found the utter oblivion of the author with respect to America and the arrogance of the EP insulting, from beginning to end.

There was an Orthodox presence here for 130 years before the first Greek diocese. Certainly, the EP has no claim on American Orthodoxy. Moscow, perhaps, but no other nation's church has foreign potentates running it. It is wholly un-canonical, not to mention fundamentally un-American.

But that is what these discussions are always really about. It's the America-hating, foreign-loving elite except instead of screaming for international courts to run the United States, they want foreigners who know nothing of the United States to run it.

WOW...

Do Roman Catholics consider the holy Popes of the apostolic, historic seat of Rome "foreign despots?"

Alice

May I point out that the only Orthodox pro-football player is a Steeler, Troy Polamalu? Let's not be dissing the Steelers here (-:

And am I the only Orthodox Christian alive who, when seeing tables set up at Orthodox churches for groups named after pagan gods and goddesses shudders, or is everybody taken in by the quaint, ethnic, Hellenic-ness of it all and just doesn't care?

Absolutely not!

But it seems to me that among Orthodox Christians there is a certain bias against the Holy See of Rome which sometimes even translates into a bias against the Ecumenical Patriarchate on the grounds that it supposedly cherishes "papal pretensions"...

Am I the only who sees a ruling hierarch call another hierarch a "foreign despot" from the pulpit during Lent? Accusations of being a "Pope"?

What I see is slander intended to discredit the EP. It is SAD.

Is this not in relation to some Hindu cleric who is given a talk on Hindiusm and that this is seen as proselytism? The issue seems to be that the talk is happening in an church.

As for the comment above, that the whole issue is fundatamentally un-American..with all due respect, poppycock. You cannot equate issues with dead British kings, tea taxes or what not with how a new autocephalous church should come into existence. It will be interesting to see how Patriarchs Daniel, Pavel and Maxim take to this issue.

I have never seen them in my parish. They serve a cultural club purpose 'outside' of the Church, not inside it..they are not related to the Church at all...though one might see their presence at a 'Greek festival' at a church.

My parish has a Greek American priest. We have many converts...most are through marriage to Greek Americans, and are generally former Catholics. My priest is devoted to Orthodoxy, in its purest form-- not cultural Hellenism...He works very hard with the non-Orthodox to make them welcome. We have had Irish American parish presidents and we have many non-Greek Americans serving in every single ministry of the Church....

We are an American parish with all that is good in being American--the English language, American friendliness, American openness, American evangelizing, Bible Study, etc., and we are an Orthodox parish with all its true Orthodoxy (which appeals to the non-Greek Americans a great deal), emphasis on the spiritual life and prayer, visits to monasteries, all the services of supplication and salutation, complines, etc., and we also have a simple hint of Hellenic culture here and there for those who want it--we do have a Greek language school, and we do often serve up some good Greek food too!

I am sorry that you think that all Greek Orthodox churches value Greek culture--not all parishes are heavily or even nominally immigrant (we don't really have any immigrants) but some are...just as some Russian and Ukrainian churches are.
That is a fact of these United States.

I don't know how we could possibly become more American if we wanted...except in the food area, and as my Irish-American co-parishioner who came to us via the OCA has said: 'you guys have the best food choices of all the Orthodox'! I would beg to differ--no offense to my Slavic friends, (I do like pieroghi very much guys) but Lebanese food of the Antiochians is awesome! As American as we are in most ways, I would not change our food choices for hot dogs just yet!

Alice

Fr. Deacon Daniel,

I must disagree with part of your post.


Clearly, team logos are modern symbols of American culture.

On the one hand, the Steelers logo is clearly a modern representation of the Most Holy Trinity.

On the other hand, the Cowboys logo is a star, which has a bit part in the Nativity story line, but is otherwise more appropriate for astrologers or celebrity worshippers.

You are correct about Cowboys fitting in better at the dude ranch.

This is where I am happy to be a Catholic, since my fellow Vietnamese Catholics make the best spring rolls ever

(Off topic!? Yes, I know. Sorry!)

"Please don't denounce me for "phyletism", but I take the view that Eastern Orthodoxy's remarkable ability to become inculturated in a wide variety of cultures, to the point that some cultures become "traditionally Orthodox", has serious value - the usual fear of "tribalism" strikes me as downright ludicrous. "

As the ultimate convert kid--I was born Jewish and was baptized into the Ruthenian Church at the age of forty--it was in fact the ethnicity that was part of the attraction. Self-conscious immigrants want to fit in, and for many Orthodox, that meant aping the predominant WASP culture. But white bread Americans are looking for something different, numinous, extraordinary. And Orthodoxy can provide that in spades.

It's a thin line between maintaining a unique identity and becoming an ethnic ghetto. Some people would obliterate all traces of Greek, Slavonic, Arabic and Syriac from our worship. Others would suppress unique architecture and art, simplify our music and make it more familiar to American ears, but this would be a grave error. One need look only to the popularity of icons among Episcopalians and Gregorian and Eastern chant with general Western audiences, to see that exotic is not necessarily a bad word.

"Do Roman Catholics consider the holy Popes of the apostolic, historic seat of Rome "foreign despots?" "

Occasionally. Ever hear of the Gallican Controversies? How about the Kulturkampf? And the relationship between the Eastern Catholics and the See of Rome is fraught with all sorts of ambivalence.

I am not a Roman Catholic.

The only times I have seen these pagan clubs is *in* GOA parishes, not outside them, and the laity and the priests were quite happy with their being there. Sorry, but that bothers me a great deal. If I saw something analogous in my OCA parish, I would speak to the priest about it.

And could you point to where I made such a silly generalization as you have accused me of? Where did I say all Greek churches?

If we must have a foreign potentate rule us, then only the Patriarch of Moscow has a claim, as his missionaries were here more than a hundred years before there was any Greek diocese. I wouldn't be very happy, but at least +Kyrill does not have papal fantasies as the EP has demonstrated many times over the years.

What's wrong with valuing Greek culture? And how can any patriarch be called a "foreign potentate"? Surely a potentate is a secular ruler? And no Christian is a foreigner to any other Christian!

And again I must object to phrases such as "papal fantasies"! These expressions are very offensive to Catholics!

It was jurisdictionalism such as this that partly directed me towards the Byzantine Catholic Church. Little did I realize. . .