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Dear Neil,

Over the past few months I have made numerous posts relating to the dire state of the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church - outside of Ukraine. I have mentioned that only the Rusyns (or in Latin Ruthenians) who were protected / aided by the greater Ruthenian 'umbrella group' known as Ukraine have survived in any significant numbers.

Fr. Peter of the UGCC indicated that this was the case in the Kholm Eparchy of the Greek Catholic Church now located in Eastern Poland. He once mentioned that "The Ukrainians (Rusyns) Greek Catholics were Polonized / Latinized and now consider themselves good patriotic Roman Catholic Poles".

There were several members of the Ruthenian Metropolia USA who mentioned Slovak adherance statistics which indicate an 'exponential loss' from it's immediate post-WW2 1/4 million membership to the present time. To a large degree 'the Fr. Peter Principle' also occured in the Slovak Republic.

Neil, I think that it is time for you to realize that the Catholic register / almanac 'cut & paste' jobs you frequently post, mean little in regards to the Greek Catholic Church. Perhaps it is time for you to read other sources of information which can provide you with a more balanced, and may I dare say realistic perspective of church 'dynamics' - including adherance statistics.

Your basic University education should have provided you with the ability to gather, examine, evaluate, and make a hypothesis as to the REALISTIC church adherance statistics for the Czech Exarchate.

If you had read my posts, and if you had made notes, and if you had compared my "rabid nationalism" with your statistic 'cut & paste jobs', then I honestly believe you would not have questioned me on the adherance statistics figure I have mentioned, because unfortunately the 'Father Peter Principle' also applies to the Greek Catholics in the Czech Exarchate.

The Statistics for the Greek Catholics in the Czech Exarchate are according to their web site:

Greek Catholics: 8774
Parishes: 18
Filial Churches: 20
Priests in Clerical Service: 32

Unfortunately, after reading your last post, it has become clear that I have not been posting enough. Clearly the messages did not get through to you. All you see is "endless posts about nationalism". I see a dire situation which requires immediate 'activism'. I'm sorry if you feel that this is "rabid nationalism".

I think that you and I, will have to once again, agree to disagree.

Your "rabid Ukie nationlist"
arrrrrrr - ruff - ruff - arrrrrrrr - ruf - ruf !

Hritzko

Good afternoon.

The "Annuario Pontificio" is the Vatican`s yearbook. I have the 2004 edition and on page 11 the following note is found: "The statistical data given are furnished by the diocesan Curias concerned and reflect the diocesan situation on the 31st December 2002, unless there is another indication." The 2004 edition has the following statistics for the Exarchate for the Czech Republic:

Catholics: 177,704
parishes: 25
secular priests: 34
religious order priests: 12
seminarians: 5
male religious: 12
baptisms: 58

I have explored the various links on the Exarchate`s website: http://www.exarchat.cz/
and I have not found any statistics on this website. I would be interested to know where the number of less than 9,000 is from. I suspect that it refers to a specific ethnic group within the exarchate. I recall that the consecration of the current exarch, which was to take place in the exarchate`s cathedral, had to be moved to a Roman-rite church because the cathedral`s doors were blocked by protesters and I believe that the protest had something to do with the ethnicity of the new exarch.

Peace,

Charles

Friends,

The AP is simply in error. Perhaps they are using the numbers for Presov from which Prague was detached, who knows? When the Exarchate was formed in 1996 it was reported there were around 8000 faithful, which anybody familiar with the Byzantine Catholic Church in the Czech Republic agrees with. I think the nationalities are nearly evenly split between Ukrainians and Rusyns/Slovaks

The Exarchate is made up of Rusyns, Ukrainians, Slovaks, and a few actual Czechs. The current bishop is Rusyn, which the Ukrainians, who are in majority at the cathedral parish, didn't like. They the blocked entrance to the Byzantine cathedral the day of his consecration so it took place in the Latin cathedral.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Charles,

Thanks for that great link.

I have a question for you linguists out there:

I speak a 'dated North American variant' of the Western dialect of the Ukrainian language sprinkled with gazillions of English words (try to say that 3 times real quickly ).

Can someone please explain to me why is it that I'm better able to understand Czech than Slovak, even though Slovakia is closer to Western Ukraine than is the Czech Republic ?

Charles, you are correct, the site is quite interesting, but I was not able to find any adherance statistics.

What did catch my eye was the Czech Greek Catholic Exarchate's 'coat of arms. Three features in particular were of interest:

(1) The colours (blue & yellow) are symbols of the Kyivan Rusyn Royals (princes) and are the same ones found on many Ukrainian coat of arms and the national flag.

(2) The 'K' and 'M' represent the Saints to the Slavs Sts Cyril & Methodius. In Ukrainian / Rusyn we say Kyrylo instead of Cyril, hense the 'K' instead of the 'C'. These two great guys of course converted the Slavs from Moravia all the way to Kyiv-Rus (Ukraine) where in 867 Prince Askold became a Christian ruler.

(3) Also, the lamb walking on land at the bottom represents the Pope St-Clement who was exhiled to Krym (the Crimea) in southern Ukraine in the first century and spread the gospels to the Slavs (ie: Rusyns) found upstream (north) of the river Dnipro in Ukraine.

WOW ! I don't think that that he Ruthenian / Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church could have designed a more patriotic coat of arms. Christian symbols from the West, South, and Northeast of Ukraine, and all from different eras.

Now back your statistics:

177,704 adherants in 25 active churches means 7,108 parishoners per church.

177,704 adherants having 58 baptism per year would equal one new Christening per 3,063 members (per year).

Charles / Neil - you got to be kidding !

I called the office in Prague to confirm my numbers. You can speak to a Fr. Peter by calling 011 420 286 886 35. He speaks Ukrainian / Rusyn and will confirm what I have posted.

OR

You can check out this neat web site:

web page [cirkev.cz]

Fr. Deacon Lance once mentioned that a group of Ukies blocked the entrance of the new Greek Catholic Bishop. I had mentioned to him that although I was not familiar with the event, it was probably because the new bishop was not appointed by the bishop of Mukachevo. He was probably appointed by a Latin rite bishop in the Czech Republic.

Given the dismal history of the Greek Catholics in Czechoslovakia at the hands of the Latin rite church, then the action by these Ukies (who are full members of the church in the Czech Exarchate) was IMHO (if it did occur) a good thing.

If you check the site I posted, and look at how the bishop is dressed, then you are going to have a hard time to convince me that he didn't mind being consecrated in the Latin rite church.

I once said that if the Ukies became 90% of the population in the Czech Exarchate, they would still demand that the bishop of Mukachevo appoints the new bishop for Prague - period. He could identify himself as Rusyn, Ukrainian, Slovak, Czech, or anything else. Anything less will lead to the continued spiralling downfall of the Ruthenian / Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in the Czech Republic.

Hritzko

Dear Hritzko, Christis Voskres! A liitle bit more about Slavs and languages, some authorities feel that Czechs are Ukrainians who migrated eastward.There would be some linguistic evidence to illustrate this,i.e. "misto" for city with the "i"(but they also have "mesto" with the e pronounced Russian style meaning place).Also, he, she, it, often pr. "von", "vona,""vono", again reminiscent of Ukrainian.One theory is that the Slovaks were forced north by the Magyar invasion,the Central dialect of Slovak, upon which the literary language is based , differs from both the Western and Eastern dialects , which show some semblance to each other.Not surprisingly, the Western dialects resemble the Moravian dialects of Czech, while the Eastern resemble the neighboring Rusyn(or Ukrainian) dialects.In common with both Ukrainian and the south Slav tongues, the Czech will say "ne", as opposed the "nie" of the Russian,Belorusan, Pole, or Slovak.

Ooops, sorry! It's Christos Voskres and the Czechs are supposed to be Ukrainians who migrated WESTWARD.Enough Ukrainians were sent eastwards by the Soviets, hardly a voluntary migration.

Hritzko,

The bishop whose picture you reference from www.cirkev.cz/exaren.html [cirkev.cz] is the former exarch, Bishop Ivan, who was a priest of the Eparchy of Presov. Bishop Ladislav, whose picture can be seen at the biskup-exarcha link on the menu at www.exarchat.cz/ [exarchat.cz] wears a traditional eastern podriasnik and panagia. His biography states he was born in Presov, so imagine he claims either Rusyn or Slovak ethnicity, and I don't know why either would be unacceptable to the Ukrainians.

To protest the appointment of a bishop-elect to the Holy See is bad manners but acceptable recourse, to block that bishop-elects entrance to his cathedral on his consecration day is outrageous, un-Christian and worthy of censure.

I also have to wonder what the bishop of Mukachevo has to do with this? Wouldn't the Ukrainians want one appointed by the Ukrainian Synod? In any case the Holy father appoints bishops for all Eastern Catholic Churches not of at least Major Archepiscopal rank. Even in Patriarchal and Major Archepiscopal Churches it is the Synod that selects new bishops not any single bishop. The bishop of Mukachevo cannot do so nor can the Czech Latin bishops.

I try to stay away from the whole Rusyn vs Ukrainian thing, but in this case it just looks like bad behavior on the part of the Ukrainians. If having a Ukrainian bishop is that important why don't they petition to be seperated from the current exarchate and have a Ukrainian one erected, I don't think there would be any problem getting this done. Perhaps your priest friend could shed some light on the situation?

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Deacon Lance and dear Hritzko,

Thanks for your clarifications and for the information. The figures which are in the AP are not from Presov, which is said to have 136,279 Catholics and 1,729 baptisms.

I checked the other exarchates listed in the AP and the figures could not have come from one of them. From my dealings with the redactors of the AP, they are very, very reluctant to accept information from any source other than an "official" one - an admirable practice. If they do not receive a reply from a diocese or eparchy, they leave the previous year`s figures there with that year in parentheses.

Somehow, since the edition of the year 2000, the exarchate has had, in the AP, a large population. It is probably due either to a misreading of the figures sent by the exarchate or to a miswriting of the figures being sent in, or perhaps to both a misreading and a miswriting. Whoever next speaks with an official of the exarchate should advise that person of the problem with the figures so that it can be corrected in next year`s AP.

Here are the figures from the 1998 edition to the present:

1998 Catholics - 42,030 parishes 7 diocesan priests 10

1999 Catholics - 42,030 parishes 8 diocesan priests 34 religious order priests 4

2000 Catholics - 200,000 parishes 23 diocesan priests 31 religious order priests 2

2001 Catholics - 270,000 parishes 24 diocesan priests 31 religious order priests 5

2002 Catholics - 250,000 parishes 25 diocesan priests 31 religious order priests 6

2003 Catholics - 190,000 parishes 25 diocesan priests 31 religious order priests 11

2004 Catholics - 177,704 parishes 25 diocesan priests 34 religious order priests 12

My theory: somehow an extra digit was added. If so, the population would have gone down from 42k to 20 k, to 27k, to 25k, to 19k, to 17k, which is closer (albeit double) to the figure on
http://www.cirkev.cz/exaren.html

I note that the above site has not been updated in more than a year, since it has the photo of the exarch emeritus. If one goes to
http://www.exarchat.cz/
and clicks on Biskup - exarcha, one can see the photo of the current exarch, not in Roman choir dress, and by scrolling down to the bottom of that page, one can click on Vladyka - emeritn� exarcha to see Bishop Ivan vested for the Divine Liturgy.

This site also has a list of the 25 parishes, grouped into 7 deanaries (sp?).

Hritzko - you have an excellent point - large parishes and almost no baptisms. It doesn`t compute. The AP figures are definitely wrong.

Peace,

Charles

Greg,

The AP numbers may be incorrect, but just like governmental census data, they are still the "official numbers"; when they are wrong they are still what is relied on by those who make decisions based on numbers. As to my reading material and information sources, believe me, they have both adequate scope and depth.

You should be aware, btw, that the "neat webpage"
you cite with such approval is actually the official website of the Czech episcopal conference; it is not the official website of the Exarchate. That might partially explain the "Latin look" of His Excellency. The official website of the Exarchate is the one to which Charles has referred you (on which, as he observed, there are no census data).

I did read your posts and it seems to me that what I did was to point out to you a conflict between the AP data and the numbers you posted - in your own words:

and,

and ask, politely, that you double-check the numbers or post a link. Let's see:

Yep, that's what I did - ask politely. And I did that because my

, and my advanced University education, provided me with an understanding that one step in logically inquiring into and, ultimately, resolving a conflict in data sources is to compare the two. Since you didn't identify the specific source from which you derived the 9,000 figure, i.e.,

I asked that you either double-check it or do so. What I received in return was an arrogant, condescending, snotty response, worthy of a grade school child who has been challenged - which you were not. In fact, my response supported your remark that the number was "very low relative to statistics (you had) seen in the past." Suddenly, you preach at me that I should have realized from your past posts that such a low number was reality - strange that you seemingly didn't, until you decided that to have not understood this discrepancy would make you appear less observant of church dynamics.

I make a point of sourcing my posts because my "basic University education" taught me that my personal knowledge is an acceptable source of information in my personal, professional environment, where what I say carries the authority and respectability that my confreres have accorded me, based on my performance and their history with me. In an environment where I am, for all intents and purposes, an anonymous being, I don't feel that anyone here is compelled to accept or believe what I write. Thus, unless it's opinion and I so state, I try to consistently offer documentation and use considerable time and effort to do so, that those who read my words can look to the same source and make their own informed decision.

I heartily agree with Deacon Lance that physically denying a hierarch access to his cathedral on the day of his episcopal ordination and/or enthronement (or on any other day) is absolutely unacceptable and outrageous behavior, not worthy of anyone who claims to be concerned about their Church. Further, as he noted, the appointment of an exarch or other hierarch for any eparchial or metropolitan Church rests with the Apostolic See, as it does for even the major archepiscopal and patriarchal Churches in the diaspora. No matter how much we dislike that, it is reality. How one would conclude that the Latin Archbishop of Mukachevo is directly involved in or responsible for such decision-making is unclear.

Feel free in future to ignore my "cut and paste" and link-supported posts, as I will yours, because I frankly can't be bothered. I frequent this forum, as opposed to others, because of its historical reputation as a place for discussion, learning, teaching, and honest disagreement among and between Catholic and Orthodox Eastern Christians and those interested in our Churches, versus insulting one-upsmanship that is so rampant on other sites. I decline to let you ruin that experience for me.

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

The Prague consecration story does sound mighty desperate to me.

Do you have a news clip or some other source for your story. I would like to present it to some people (here and in Ukraine) I know for further analysis and then formulate a better response. I have searched high and low, and have not been able to find a single story about this sad event.

Again, I find it very hard to believe that they blocked the entrance of bishop "because he was a Rusyn". This would be incongruent with eveything I have seen, heard, and experienced in the past, which has been; to support the Carpathian Rusyn identity.

I have heard of UGCC adherants protesting in regards to the consecration and / or activities of certain bishops. The bishops Danylak (Toronto) and Horniak (United Kingdom) come to mind immediately. These bishops were viewed as being Latinizers +/or anti-Patriarchal , and yes there was a certain amount of militancy on the part of the Greek Catholic Church members to have them removed.

Given the recent 'final solution' statement by the Ecumenical Patriarch, the outcome of Cardinal Kaspers meeting with the Moscow Patriarch, and the ongoing latinizing of the Greek Catholic Church, I'm not convinced that a bit of militancy / nationalism may not be needed to help preserve the 'remnants'.

As previously discussed on this forum, when the Greek Catholic Church emerged from the clutches of the Russian Orthodox Church in Slovakia in 1968, the Roman Catholic Church usurped the powers of the Greek Catholic bishops. Soon, a generational process of Latinization began which has produced some pretty grim demographics.

In my opinion, it is the above which was un-Christian, unkind and censurable.

Unfortunately we are discussing remnants. With 58 baptisms per almost 9,000 adherants, it is safe to conclude that the Czech Eparchy is mostly senior citizens. The next generation (20 years) will see and exponential decline in numbers unless something is done rapidly. It may even be too late - so drastic measures may be needed.

The 1996 picture of the bishop in Roman Catholic attire I found on the site is a good indication of the mind set of the hierarchy. Nobody should be surprised that the youth has moved over to the Roman Catholic Church. (BTW, thank you for properly identifying the bishop for me).

I'm glad to hear that there are changes being made to better reflect the Orthodoxy of the Greek Catholic Church.

You are correct about your statement concerning Bishop Milan Shashik of the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church. His seat is in fact as you state in Mukachevo, Ukraine. However, it should be noted that he is a bi-ritual Catholic, ethnic CARPATHO-RUSYN, and SLOVAK NATIONAL. Not only does he represent by far the largest eparchy of the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church, but he is also the only bishop who is fluent in Slovak, Czech, Ukrainian, and Hungarian (and other languages) and as such perfectly suited to unite all of the Carpatho-Ruthenian eparchies & exarchates. He 'manages' the eparchy as a 'stand alone unit' but does have a strong affiliation with the larger Ukrainian Church. After all, they do speak the same language.

Prague at one time was linked to Mukachevo, and only due to geopolitical events was the historic link severed. There is no reason why this can't be re-established to help preserve the unique historical identity of the Prague eparchy.

Hritzko

Hritzko,

The story, which was at one time on the exarchate's site with pictures, didn't give any reason as to why this was done only stating that it occured and Ukrainian members of the cathedral parish were the ones blocking the entrance.

I will say that in my expereince Ukrainians tend to down play a distinct Carpatho Rusyn identity and think of them as Ukrainians. On the otherhand Carpatho Rusyns tend to think of themselves as distinct from Ukrainians as Ukrainians think themselves distinct from Russians. Around here Ukrainian and Rusyn Catholics don't have much to do with each other and tend to go their seperate ways albeit amicably. So while it shocks me that a group of Ukrainians would act in such a way in this day can't say it is a complete surprise either. The reason there are two Metropolias in the US is becasue the Ukrainians and Rusyns couldn't get along or accept the other as their bishop. Also the Ukrainians have a history of wanting to annex the Rusyn jurisdictions both in the US and in Ukraine. Bishop Daniel fought against this in the 50's and there are current tensions today in Mukachevo and obviously Prague.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Hritzko,

If you search the archives you will find links to a several articles in czech and Slovak on the story.
The gist of the problem, IIRC, involved the manner of appointment, and "nationality". The bishop was described as a magyarized Slovak. I am rather impressed by his CV myself. I agree with Lance's characterization of the actions against the bishop.

Forum thread

Article [cassovia.sk]

Article [cassovia.sk]

Dear DJS,

Well now things make sense.

The key word to better understanding the dynamics here is MAGYARIZED (ie: became Hungarian).

In several of my posts I had mentioned that the Ruthenians (Rusyns) had been enslaved by the Poles, Russians, and Hungarians for hundred of years.

As they freed themselves of these colonial rulers, they began to identify themselves as Ukrainians. To this day, there are some Ukrainians who retain an inferiority complex in relation to all of their former colonial rulers. They just believe that they have been placed on this earth to serve either Russian or Hungarian masters. Very few still feel this way in relation to Poles.

Many of their former colonial rulers, now have large amounts of cash, are doing everything to regain control of their 'Rusyn servants'. Freedom or self-rule for Rusyns (as Ukrainians) is an evil philosophy for the colonizers. The Ruthenian nationalists (otherwise known as Ukrainians) are in a constant battle with this old colonial mentality. It's about being masters in your own home and not being "White Niggers".

To better illustrate this point, in Mukachevo, the unofficial capital of Carpatho-Rus, the municipal elections were overturned (no reasons given) by corrupt officials who were paid off. The ethnic Carpatho-Rusyn, who was supported by the Nationalist Ukrainian party, was replaced by an ethnic Hungarian who has very strong ties to the organized mob in Hungary. The Christian Democratic Nationalist Ukrainians were unable to return the ethnic Carpatho-Rusyn to the position of major of Mukachevo.

You can type the words: 'MUKACHEVO MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS' into any search engine to get more information. I urge you to read for yourselves the gravity of the situation.

Since the elections were overturned, this new Hungarian NATIONALIST has been moving ALL power into the hands of corrupt ethnic Hungarians. The ethnic Carpatho-Ruthenians are back to the bottom of the totem pole. The corrupt oligarch in Kyiv do not care because they are all about corruption. The Hungarian mob pays of the Kyiv mob (Oligarchs), and presto magiko - the Carpatho Rusyns are back to being someones servant / slaves. It's back to "white niggers" and "white Rhodesians" (this is a commonly used Canadian political science expression to describe whites wanting to enslave other whites).

If you think that this is a side story to what is going on in Prague, then think again. The Hungarians have one plan only. Attempt to annex Carpatho-Rus (economy, church, etc...) and return to the old days of master - servant.

In conclusion, the Ukrainians did not block the church because a Carpatho-Rusyn was being consecrated. They blocked the church because there is an ongoing, very organized, and well funded, campaign on the part of Hungary to take control of Carpatho-Rus (Zakarpattia) Ukraine. The Mukachevo municipal elections should be a strong indicator of what is going on.

What is most schocking, is that I have been told that there are some people here in North America who welcome this re-Magyarization / colonization / Latinization of the Carpatho-Ruthenian lands. Schocking !

If I had been in Prague I would have done the same to ensure the Magyar colonizers / Latinizers did not take control of the REMNANTS of the church. and continue the tragic downfall of the Greek Catholics in the Czeck Republic.

58 baptisms / 9000 adherants = cultural / religious genocide. Why continue ?

Hritzko

Hritzko:

Is there a scintilla of evidence to support a connection between this bishop and the putative "ongoing, very organized, and well funded, campaign on the part of Hungary to take control of Carpatho-Rus (Zakarpattia) Ukraine". Or do we see conspiracy theorists reading their struggle into everything that happens around them, however unrelated. Is the charge of a magyar orientation fair, or is it a slur by people with their own agenda?

Outrageous. Please explain how this disruption of the service - recognized as felonious behaviour in the US - ensured anything having to so with "Magyar rules taking control".