www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Bowing to a muslim king???

Oh, y'all. I beg to differ.

Alexis

Heads of state (i.e. popes, emperors, kings, queens, presidents) don't bow to each other, they shake hands.

Example 1: The Pope and King Abdullah



Example 2: The Queen and King Abdullah



What Mr. Obama did was to bow from the waist to the Saudi king, something which is not called for between heads of state:



What no one has commented on is that Mr. Obama bowed his head to the Queen, something which he should not do either, since he is not one of the Queen's subjects:



So the lesson is, if you ever become President of the United States, you are the equal of any foreign head of state. You shake hands, but you don't bow.

Still, I don't think we should be making too much of this. Clearly, Mr. Obama hasn't had the years and years of training in protocol that foreign royalty have had. The Pope too, though not royalty, has had many years to learn the importance of liturgical and other gestures.

"Clearly, Mr. Obama hasn't had the years and years of training in protocol that foreign royalty have had."

No American president does. Some, like the elder George Bush, had diplomatic experience under their belts, which helps. But that is why the State Department has a Protocol Section that is supposed to stage manage all of these head of state meetings, providing detailed rubrics (that is the right term for it) for each event. Those of us who have worked in foreign affairs look upon these gaffes as symptomatic of a President who is not really engaged in foreign affairs, and a State Department in a state of disarray, since it cannot manage what is normally a routine event. After the botched reception of British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, one can only conclude that amateur hour is here again.

I have to admit the last time we saw anything like this was in the reign of Jimmy Carter, who had the temerity to bus the Queen Mother on the lips, a truly cringe-worthy moment if ever there was one.

He clearly simply does not know the protocol.

Now, I agree that they may be regrettable, but to go as far as saying that it was intended to be or could be taken as an act of weakness to the Muslim monarch is really just silly to me (sorry). I feel like many of the posts in this thread are agenda-driven.

Alexis

The important thing, Alexis, is not what you think, but what the rest of the World sees. That's why there is protocol, an elaborate ritual dance that sends symbolic messages through words, actions and gestures. When protocol is followed, there are no misunderstandings. And misunderstandings in international affairs can have deadly serious consequences.

IMHO, again, just my opinion, I believe it was intentional and he was doing his "muslim" duty in honoring who he preceives as one of his faith fathers...

At least we didn't get a replay of the man-on-man mouth kiss from the previous Presidential visit.. yuck!

The Pope is not a mohammedan, but he is considered "royalty" on the international diplomatic circuit; he is the Sovereign of Vatican City State.

Vatican City State has very few actual citizens; when the overwhelming majority of Catholics offer homage to the Pope, we do so for religious reasons, not political reasons. One does the same (with a variety of forms) to such personages as Patriarchs.

Fr. Serge

Obviously Mr. Obama does not know the proper protocol in these matters. He may have just reacted instinctively to an older more venerable person (as all older people should be regarded). Many years ago I remember quite clearly seeing Pope John Paul II make a deep bow to the Queen when she visited the Vatican. I also remember cringing in embarrassment over the incident even though I was a sincere monarchist. These things happen for all sorts of reasons but are hopefully corrected with time. When Pope John Paul II returned the visit to the Queen at Buckingham Palace, there was a distinct lack of deep bows and more just a sort of bobbing up and down by the two of them all protocol right and proper, though the Queen looked a little disconcerted by the whole experience.

StuartK,

Right you are; my own personal opinion doesn't matter, per se. But let me try to make myself clearer: what I think is not that it was not an act of weakness. Instead, what I think is that outside of a few on this board, and perhaps a smattering of others here and there, no one believes his bow conveyed weakness.

Alexis

Have to disagree with you Stuart, I commend President Carter's actions.

"Instead, what I think is that outside of a few on this board, and perhaps a smattering of others here and there, no one believes his bow conveyed weakness."

The propagandists in the Near East may not believe it too, but it will end up on posters or newspapers with false stories and headlines.

Terry

I think StuartK draws the right conclusion. I don't think there is any kind of Muslim conspiracy, as some seem to think; it's just some good old-fashioned incompetence (on the part of the State Department protocol office) and inexperience (on the part of the president).