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A bishop of my acquaintance recommended (did not require, and certainly did not invoke any penalty) the Friday abstinence. He received some utterly unbelievable letters of protest from various parishioners - and still worse, some letters giving quite a variety of half-baked excuses and weird forms of behavior which should "exempt" these people from the Friday abstinence. Incredible!

Fr. Serge

I don't think a normal, healthy person needs a spiritual director to practice the basics of fasting. It's like saying that person needs to consult with a physician or a coach before doing basic exercises like walking or push-ups. And basic fasting is a basic exercise, with no threat to health.

It would be impossible, as well as foolhardy, to try to keep the whole typikon (Orthodox monastic rule) on fasting to begin with. That is like an Olympic standard of fasting. It takes time, years if ever, to work up to and train the body for that. Besides, I have learned through experience that the rule of fasting is an ideal that people are supposed to strive to attain, not a pharisaical requirement. See http://orthodoxwiki.org/Fasting as an introduction.

Also, Anhelyna is right: that level of discipline isn't appropriate for when the body is growing and needs nourishment.

But, it is quite possible, and healthy, to fast moderately even while young. A person can start on Wednesdays and Fridays by avoiding meat and junk food. (That leaves fish, dairy, eggs, vegetables, grains, nuts, and tofu as potential sources of protein.) That kind of fast can be extended for the entire period of Great Lent and the Nativity Fast and the first two weeks of August (for Transfiguration and Dormition). It doesn't sound like much to give up meat and junk food. But, unless a person is already a vegetarian, it is a surprising challenge to give up eating meat and junk food in a culture that has a surfeit of food and that tries to entice us to eat all the time.

Later, one can try fasting in steps from fish, then also from eggs or dairy, and then eventually eggs and dairy.

Of course, some people should first consult with a health care worker to make sure they are not hurting their health: the young who are still growing, the ill, and the infirm should consider consulting with a health care worker about nutrition.

But frankly, for healthy adults living in the modern world: this kind of fasting would be probably beneficial. It would compensate for the overeating and junk food that we indulge in during the rest of time, and it might even teach us enough self-discipline and reliance on prayer so that we wouldn't eat badly the rest of the time.

Those are the real goals of fasting: cultivating self-discipline and an active prayer life. Losing weight and improving one's health are real and nice side benefits. But the goal is to overcome our weaknesses and to learn to rely on God's grace to do so.

That, in turn, can be applied to other areas of life as well. Self-discipline and greater reliance on prayer can help a person overcome other problem areas in one's life: like addiction, sexual impurity, selfishness in relationships, and so on. Progress in the virtues is incremental but cumulative.

Fasting is not a panacea, and it is not a miracle solution, and it is not a guarantee of happiness or success or holiness. It is simply an exercise in increasing self-discipline and reliance on God's grace. Yet, those two qualities are important in themselves and they are necessary (with other assistance) in overcoming many of life's challenges.

And, the original poster ("Altar Server") is quite right: It *is* difficult to find a priest --especially in the Catholic Church-- who is open to the practice of fasting and other moderate ascetic discipline.

In my experience, fasting and other forms of moderate asceticism make many Catholics (priests and laity) nervous and uncomfortable. They seem to think of fasting as primitive, misguided effort, that is bordering on masochism. They tend to emphasize the social aspect of the Gospel and its impact on this world. Hence, they tend to prefer emphasizing social action, applied psychology and harmonious relationships. Yet, while all that can be good, it sorely neglects the reality of the interior life of the heart and the soul. And it is precisely in the heart and soul where change begins and is sustained. The difference between this patristic point of view and the former point of view is that the fathers of the Church treat the Gospel as spiritually real, historically accurate, and not just as a metaphor. Hence, prayer, fasting and almsgiving are to be practiced literally and not just for their psychological or physiological benefits. Those benefits are genuine but secondary to the real purpose: which is furthering and deepening Communion with God: directly and with the neighbor. But, people who really don't accept that point of view are unlikely to support it in others.

Hence, there have been a lot of times when I go to Confession but I don't have a spiritual director. Instead, there have been many times when I go to Confession for the Sacrament and I use the writings of the saints and fathers and my own conscience as my spiritual guides. That's not the ideal situation, but it is the practical reality that I and others have faced.

Discovering the Eastern Church (Orthodox as well as Eastern Catholics) has been a God-send for me: because I have found a form of Christianity that takes deep spirituality as the basis for the practice of Christianity, and it has a practical, proven tradition to back it up. In my opinion, it complements and balances the more worldly emphasis of Western Christianity. In my opinion also, the Western tradition balances and completes the Eastern Church's more mystical approach. I try, therefore, to take and practice both for a more complete attempt to live the Gospel.

-- John

Dear John,

Nice post!

I grew up in a jurisdiction who had growing pains...wanting desperately to fit in with Western Christianity during the decades in U.S. history which demanded assimilation...To everything there is a season, however.

Therefore, fasting, and hearing about fasting and seeing priests fast has come back to us fairly recently...and there are still some priests of my generation and older who claim it to be 'monastic practice'.

I am not saying that we should judge those who do not fast! I am sure we were all one of them at one time! That is why I like that John said:



I would also add, in the sentiment of a saint who I cannot remember right now, that fasting in the wrong way (ie: fasting from the food, but not praying, not going to church, not going to confession, not abstaining from gossiping, entertainments, etc.) can lead to prelest (spiritual delusion). I knew one woman like this. She had been trained from a child to fast, so when Lent came around she could abstain from every food perfectly, but that was all she did for Lent, and she was still gossiping, still hateful, and even more nastier than ever during those times...and judging everyone else who did not fast. Infact, she turned me off so much that I rejected fasting for a long time because of her example!

Anyway, in conclusion these rambling thoughts...John might suggest to his Roman Catholic priests that our Lord said "WHEN you fast", not " if you fast".

Also, this is a nice quote as well:

"You greatly delude yourself and err, if you think that one thing is demanded from the layman and another from the monk...what has turned the world upside down is that we think only the monk must live rigorously, while the rest are allowed to live a life of indolence" St. John Chrysostom


Ultimately, the important thing is wanting to fast. It is something which the soul needs to embrace..if done purely out of force or to 'follow the law', it will produce nothing.

In the risen Christ,
Alice

P.S. A funny note on adequate protein intake. Hummus is a very, very good source, is great as a spread or a dip, and one that was not readily available or likeable until recently in mainstream America. There is a brand sold in supermarkets here called 'Sabra' which is very smooth and tasty and comes in different flavors: lemon, roasted pine nuts, roasted peppers, etc. Well, despite that my two adult children who were living home during Lent do not want to fast, I couldn't keep the container of hummus which I bought for MY fast long enough in the fridge without having to go buy more every couple of days !!

Alice,

I think you made some excellent points in that post !

To build on that, may I suggest to readers that fasting is only one part of the way to live the Life in Christ? Our Lord (in Matthew) advises us on prayer, fasting and almsgiving. I (sinner that I am) interpret this to refer to the extertior life (prayer), the interior life (fasting) and the integrated life (almsgiving) when lived in union with Christ, through the Holy Spirit, unto God our Heavenly Father. It is an entire way of life, the Life in Christ.

I would further suggest that people who are interested in learning more should consult Kallisto Ware's book, " The Orthodox Way [amazon.com] ." It is not about the Orthodox Church, per se. It is about the basic way to live and understand the Life in Christ, and it is perfectly applicable by Catholics, Protestants, and even seekers.

Be well.

-- John

P.S., I agree: Sabra brand chummus is one of the best !

One thing that most people can do is give up meat for Lent. Even we Romans should not have much trouble with that. It is harder when there are diet restrictions for physical problems and then you add or subtract other items. Check with your Dr if on a special diet prior to any change in eating. We need to be as healthy as we can be to do Gods work.

Christ is Risen! Indeed He is risen!

I've found that fasting is little more than an endurance test unless my prayer life increases too,and the results have been wonderful...always. Fasting Eastern style really challenges me to grow spiritually. An unintentional benefit has been better self discipline in all areas of my life, and losing extra weight.

But,does anybody else find it hard to hold onto prayer rules and return to fasting after Bright week?

Fasting? I'm still enjoying the challenge and the benefits, including losing weight.

Prayer rule? I'm not enjoying the challenge to keep prayer fresh and from the heart. Using different prayers helps, somewhat. I'm trying to find different ways to pray, however.

Split off and moved to "WHAT IS PRAYER?" thread.

My reply about prayer is a tangent and takes away from the question posed by the initial poster and the thread's title.

BOB

Yes, dear Indigo, it can be a bit difficult, but after a few years, you get so used to the fasting on Wed. and Fri. that you almost do it during bright week too...

As for prayer, this is going to sound *extremely* wierd, but I have this personal problem because I have Seasonal Affective Disorder, and I am very affected by seasons.

I find that the winter, with its cold, dark and dreary days, much more condusive to prayer than bright, sunny, warm spring and summer days...it is almost like my 'depressed' state during the winter brings me very, very close to God, and my cheerier and not so depressed state in the spring and summer makes me struggle to discipline myself to want to pray as much...Go figure?!?

Alice

Thank you, BOB and Alice !

Chhristos Anesti! Alithos anesti!

Alice, you hit the nail right on the head with your SAD example. With persistence and consistency, it is harder to continue praying(or fasting at this point) when times are good, and easiest when burdened. Bob, you provided the answer to prayiing and fasting during good times-persistence and consistency.
Bless you both.

Altar Server:

You can start with the traditional one--from midnight, nothing to eat, drink, or smoke. After all, if people can do that for 12 hours before having blood drawn, it ought to be a piece of cake to go from midnight to the time of Holy Communion.

Mlouise has a good suggestion, too:



If you consider that the Western tradition allows fish, and if you consider that many health experts recommend eating more fish, this one would be not only moving in spiritual direction but improving your physical health as well.

You might also consider the Western fasting pattern of having two small meals that do not equal a full meal--the present Ash Wednesday and Good Friday regimen. Used to be every day of Lent and every Friday as well.

In Christ,

BOB

JOHN:



I guess keeping prayer "fresh" is different for me because I've been trained as an language teacher. Individual words grab my attention because of my study of earlier forms of English and an awareness of the older word meanings that can make a familiar prayer suddenly become something totally different. Then, again, sometimes the same word seems to have a different emphasis on a different day and then the richness of the prayers never seems to be exhausted.

One of my favorites is the word "know." It meant that intimate relationship shared by a man and a woman in marriage.

For example this passage from Scripture:

"The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him." Read it as

"The reason the world has no (intimate) relationship with us is that it had no (intimate) relationship with Him." Read this "relationship" as "having nothing in common."

"The reason the world has nothing in common with us is that it had nothing in common with Him."

Then there is the lesson in emphasis we used to use in training lay readers in proclaiming rather than simply reading:

OUR TEAM IS GREAT.

Read the sentence four times. Each time emphasis a different word and listen for the shift in meaning brought on by the differing emphasis.

As far as fresh, I've found the Byzantine tradition to be a cross between a treasury and a bakery. There are always riches to be dazzled by and wonderful expressions of faith to be savored.

For example, the phrase in Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow's two prayers--"Pray Thou Thyself in me"--had me wondering for the longest time. Somehow it "clunks" in a more modern English, but when you analyze it, it indicates a prayer that my prayer be actually the prayer of Christ Himself uttered through me. In other words, let me be so open to the groanings of the Holy Spirit that my utterance would be that pure prayer that Christ Himself offers to the Father. Quite a profound thought. And it only took the Holy Spirit about 20 years to get that through my thick skull.

Just some thoughts from a fool.

In Christ,

BOB

Bob the only problem with the tweleve hour fast before reciving is that I go to Mass at 7:30 at night most weeks so I was thinking more along the lines of three hours :p and did it used to be fasting every Friday or just abstinence?