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Dear Serge,

Truth be told, there were a number of things that weren't historically accurate in Braveheart . . .

In the later struggle between King Edward II and Thomas of Lancaster, both were killed and both had a local cult that preceded a canonization process in Rome.

Yes, I understand your point, but the fact that a canonization process occurred at all at Rome (the local bishops promoted it and gathered immediate information) and was dropped for reasons other than the candidate's sexuality says something.

Edward was, in fact, a pious man in all things save his sexual orientation. He struggled with both as many Christians with a homosexual orientation do today.

His horrible death was considered by the people to be a kind of "expiation" in fact.

The historical William Wallace was himself no "ladies man" but a professed warrior-monk, probably a Templar (many Templars fought on the side of Robert the Bruce).

He constantly carried his psalter and prayer rope with him (it was a true prayer rope with knots). He prayed from this psalter in his final moments before it was taken from him along with his prayer rope.

A canonization process was introduced at Rome to declare him a martyred saint following the declaration of Ardbroath but was stopped by English influence at Rome.

Scottish Catholics are now petitioning Rome to resume this, something undoubtedly caused by Braveheart.

It is a powerful film and my niece and nephew bought me the Wallace sword for my birthday last year.

I love it, although my wife says it is too much for me to sleep with it by my side.

I tell her that I have to have it with me everywhere . . .

Can't she just grow up?

Alex

The article states that while Fr. Judge allowed Dignity to run its AIDS ministry from his facility and have Mass there he himself did not say their Masses. While I think this collaboration makes many uncomfortable and I am not sure that I agree with it, I don't think this makes him a dissenter. The fact that he himself declined to say their Mass shows he was willing to follow the Church's teaching. For this reason alone I think Dignity and Axios are misguided if they think his canonization would give them a hero to uphold. The Church teaches that homosexuality is in itself not sinful, but sexual acts outside of the marital union of a man and woman, whether heterosexual or homosexual are sinful. Form what I've read, I don't see anything that shows Fr. Judge believed or taught otherwise. If anything his canonization would stand in contrast to Dignity and Axios which are trying to reverse Church teaching to declare sex outside of marriage as not sinful.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Fr Judge's collaboration with that group, even if he didn't celebrate their Masses, is enough to nix a canonization, unless, as I have said, there is proof he changed his mind about this past collaboration.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Lance and Serge,

First of all, I don't think Axios ever said that he was looking for a "hero" to promote any particular cause. We're imputing motive here until such time, and if, Axios affirms otherwise.

But apart from all this, I think it is entirely likely that a popular cult and even "canonization process" may take place among the general populace whether Catholic or not.

He may become a "spiritual icon" of 911 representing the sacrifice of the New York fire officers and others rushing to help the victims on the scene.

Many people in Hawaii, for example, venerate Bl. Father Damien, including, FYI, Hawaiian pagans. The same is true of Mother Teresa who is honoured by many of other faiths.

In addition, it is a fact that Christians with a homosexual orientation do have their own saints with whom they identify with whether it is St John the Theologian, Sergius and Bacchus or Edward II of England.

For some, these represent an "affirmation" of their life-style, for others, patrons assisting them in their ongoing struggle with the tension between their desire to follow Christ and their orientation.

I don't have any pat answers to this painful issue. I don't believe there are any around.

Alex

Mychal Judge, Pray for Us.

Edwin,

It's actually "Judge", not "Fudge". His first name has an unusual spelling as well, "Mychal" instead of "Michael"

Axios

www.axios.net [axios.net]
http://www.eskimo.com/~nickz/axios.html

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Axios ]

Edwin said: Unless you are Eastern Catholics and must wait for Rome to canonize your saints for you. LOL!!!

Ouch! That hurts!!! However, the Eastern Catholic Churches, by law, do not require the Holy See of Rome to beatify someone. The local Church is able to do this, as should have been the case for the New Martyrs of Rus' (June 27 N.S.) beatified in 2001. The process was taken up by the Archeparchy of L'viv but taken over by the Holy See.

Daniil,

By law? What law? Where? Whaddya talkin' about, my friend? The New Martyrs were canonized by Rome. Our church cannot beatify its own saints locally as much as Serge can canonize them for us. That was the point I was trying to make. Does our church pick its own bishops without Rome's approval too? As much as Serge or anyone not in communion with Rome does. My commment was in response to Kurt's bold comments that didn't make sense to me. Maybe Kurt can clarify why he thinks ONLY those NOT in communion with Rome can't canonize our saints?

Axios,

Thank you for the correction. The priest's name was Fr. Judge. I think I was hungry for some sweets when I wrote that.

Dear Daniil,

In accordance with ancient apostolic practice, you are right, of course.

Any Particular Church has the inalienable right to glorify and venerate its local saints, even though the Ukrainian Church submits to Roman law over this practice.

In fact, when Pope Urban VIII declared that even Beatifications or local Canonizations were to be reserved to Rome alone, most Italian and other bishops ignored this and continued to beatify saints for their dioceses.

Bl. John Duns Scotus was so beatified in a diocese in Italy years before his formal Roman beatification took place. Bl. Peter Lombard was also so beatified. Bl. Joachim di Fiore was likewise beatified locally and his liturgical feast is in the Roman calendar, but his beatification is not formally recognized and so it is now underway at Rome.

Bl. Jerome Savonarola was so honoured among the Dominicans and saint medals of him were worn by a number of saints, whose own canonization processes were momentarily stalled because it was discovered they venerated someone condemned by the Church and burned.

Bl. King Henry VI was locally honoured in England and his process was cancelled by King Henry VIII.

Pope BL. John XXIII reinstituted his process and now members of his devotional society may publicly invoke this King as "Blessed."

The next step for the Particular Ukrainian Church could be to have its Patriarchal Synod formally glorify someone, perhaps Andrew Sheptytsky (we don't have "Beatification", do this liturgically, have his icon written and then simply inform Rome of that this act was made.

I think Rome will then simply move to approve, although we wouldn't necessarily care.

If your parish of St Elias were in charge, Daniil, I'm sure this would be an actuality!

Good for you!

Alex

Edwin, Daniil said particular Catholic Churches can beatify their own, not canonize. No contradiction there.

Alex, it is a shame the Ukrainian Catholic Church submits (must submit?) to Roman law on this point (canonization). Such only perpetuates the Schism.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Serge,

Yes. Sorry. But my original response to Kurt's remark to you was about canonization, not beatification.


Kurt wrote: "The Catholic Church firmly holds and declares that laymen outside communion with the Universal Pastor do not determine CANONIZATION (my emphasis).
Rome has spoken! The matter is settled!"

I wrote: Unless you are Eastern Catholics and must wait for Rome to CANONIZE (my emphasis) your saints for you. LOL!!!


I am not aware of the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church canonizing any of its saints on its own.

In the reams of discussions between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the issue of canonization has never been raised as a problem. (I accept the counterpoint here that ROCOR does not generally participate in these discussions and therefore its members might be in a different catagory).

The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church has the authority to authorize the public veneration of individuals within its jurisdiction. The Universal Pastor has that authority for universal veneration. Catholic eparchies and monasteries also have some authority to that end for their eparchy or monastery.

Many Greek Catholics (including myself) think it would be unfortunate to totally internalize this process. The result, intended or not, would be limiting our veneration mostly to people of our own particular church and often our own ethnicity.

Civil and repectful cases can be made for a variety of practices, something our Catholic and canonical Eastern Orthodox bishops seem to understand.

I would hope laypeople who call themselves ecumenists could also hold the same understanding.

Kurt

St. Edith Stein, Daughter of the Church in Germany, Martyr in the land of the Slavs, Pray that human life from conception until natural death may always be respected in our Slavic homelands and everywhere.

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Kurt ]

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Kurt ]

Kurt said:"The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church has the authority to authorize the public veneration of individuals within its jurisdiction. The Universal Pastor has that auhtority for universal veneration. Catholic eparchies also have some authority to that end for their eparchy."

Sorry about being unclear. That is what I meant.

Dear Kurt,

We've had this talk before and I would like to return to it for a moment.

I wrote, e-mailed and met with church officials from the Ukrainian Greek Catholic offices in L'viv and mentioned this.

Each and every time the reply I received was, "There is no such office, the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church has no such authority to authorise the public veneration of anyone."

I'm not against that, if it is true, as you know.

Can you help me with this, though?

Where did you get your information? I'm not saying it isn't true, I just want to verify it.

In the parish of St Josaphat, for example, there was an icon printed of a pious parishioner who died in the odour of sanctity.

People do pray to him, but there is no public liturgical celebrations of any kind. Is this what you mean?

Alex