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AthanasiusTheLesser
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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Athanasius The L
Fr. Deacon Anthony:

What penalty would you impose upon those who would be prosecuted and convicted of sodomy? If you were to have a homosexual sibling, aunt, uncle, cousin, or child, would you want him or her to be subject to arrest, prosecution, imposition of legal penalty, and the consequences of a criminal record?

A request to make a sincere act of contrition and the resolve, through God's grace, to sin no more.

If I were a judge, prosecutor or in the legislature, I think sodomy could be treated, legally, similar to prostitution (where it is prohibited).

Fr. Deacon Anthony:

By what authority and upon whose behalf would a secular authority impose a penalty such as "a request to make a sincere act of contrition and the resolve, through God's grace, to sin no more," which is of a thorougly religous nature? What about imposing such conditions upon those who fail to see their actions as being sinful? What about the atheist?

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Grateful
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I was wrong.

The real issue here is not politics and it is not abortion.

The real issue is the question:

How will Catholic conservatives respond to a culture which they feel they have lost?

And the answer is: Some Catholic conservatives are becoming religious fundamentalists.

-- John


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Originally Posted by Stephanos I
Alexis I wasnt referring at all to party politics.
Just those who call themselves Christian and justify certain issues as abortion as one of them. (And that is just one issue.)
How can a Christian in their right mind defend such a position.

He cannot, obviously.

Alexis

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Joe,

I should really read up on religious liberty pre- and post-Vatican II, but from what I have heard amongst others, there is a major difference to what "religious 'liberty'" meant to St. Pius X and what it meant at Vatican II.

If Catholic dogma did such an obvious one-eighty, I don't see how any rational person could remain Catholic. And there are billions of us, including many of the most intelligent and spiritual Christian theologians alive today, not the least of whom is the Pope of Rome.

Alexis

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Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis
...religious liberty pre- and post-Vatican II,...
There is certainly a huge range of interpretation, acceptance and rejection of the Catholic Church's teaching on this topic. I found this review ( link [kirkcenter.org] ) informative and balanced. It covers part of the process which I would summarize:

1. Error has no rights (the hard saying but essential and true)
2. But the man who errs has equal rights with him who errs not
(which properly understood does not then imply or lead to)
3. Error has fundamental rights even on an equal basis with the Truth

But once 3 becomes the norm or is perceived as correct, the result is the outright or effective denial of 1, even by those who otherwise would affirm moral absolutes.

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Excellent review. Thanks for the link!

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I think that one of the greatest sins second to murder (including abortion and unjust wars) to be destruction of the environment. How can we support a culture of life if we are not taking care of the place that we live? We can fight to end abortion, euthanasia, divorce, gluttony, etc... but if we do not work to save this earth then there is a real obstacle to working for an end to all other immoral practices.

On a side note, I think the first step in passing laws outlawing abortion is to state when life truly begins. I also think it's odd that abortion is permissible and at the same time there are laws that if someone murders a pregnant woman that person can be charged with a double murder; it makes no sense to me, when someone else kills the baby it's illegal when the mother chooses to kill the baby it's ok. Another note, I think we have a hard battle in front of us regarding "reproductive rights," but I hate when abortion is categorized as such. You're reproductive rights were whether to have sex, whether or not to use "protection" or birth control (UNFORTUNATELY), etc...

Just some thoughts.

Peace in Christ,
Ed

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The Most Reverend John Darcy, Bishop of Fort Wayne-South Bend, in whose diocese Notre Dame University is situated, has issued an important statement to the faithful. In it, he makes it clear that the USCCB's decision that "[t]he Catholic community and Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles" does apply in this case and that "[t]hey [including Pres. Obama] should not be given awards, honors or platforms which would suggest support for their actions." Bishop Darcy also makes it clear that Father Jenkins' failure to consult his local Ordinary was a serious mistake. Finally, the bishop "pledge[s] to work with Father Jenkins and all at Notre Dame to heal the terrible breach, which has taken place between Notre Dame and the church. It cannot be allowed to continue."

My admiration for Bishop Darcy is growing! Here is his statement, which deserves to be read in full:

Quote
Statement to the faithful

April 21, 2009

My Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Recently, Father John Jenkins, CSC, in a letter of response to Bishop Olmsted of the Diocese of Phoenix, who had written him, critical of the decision to invite President Obama to speak and receive an honorary degree of law at Notre Dame, indicated that it was his conviction that the statement “Catholics in Political Life” (USCCB) did not apply in this matter. Father Jenkins kindly sent me a copy of his letter, and also at a later meeting, asked for a response.
In an April 15th letter to Father Jenkins, I responded to his letter.

Now the points made in his letter have been sent by Father Jenkins to the members of the Notre Dame Board of Trustees and have been publicized nationally, as well as locally in the South Bend Tribune. Since the matter is now public, it is my duty as the bishop of this diocese to respond and correct. I take up this responsibility with some sadness, but also with the conviction that if I did not do so, I would be remiss in my pastoral responsibility.

Rather than share my full letter, which I have shared with some in church leadership, I prefer to present some of the key points.

1. The meaning of the sentence in the USCCB document relative to Catholic institutions is clear. It places the responsibility on those institutions, and indeed, on the Catholic community itself.

“The Catholic community and Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles. They should not be given awards, honors or platforms which would suggest support for their actions.” — “Catholics in Political Life,” USCCB.

2. When there is a doubt concerning the meaning of a document of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, where does one find the authentic interpretation? A fundamental, canonical and theological principal [sic] states that it is found in the local bishop, who is the teacher and lawgiver in his diocese. — Canon 330, 375 §§ 1 & 2; 380; 381 § 1; 391 § 1; 392, & 394 §1.

3. I informed Father Jenkins that if there was any genuine questions or doubt about the meaning of the relevant sentence in the conference’s document, any competent canonist with knowledge of the tradition and love for Christ’s church had the responsibility to inform Father Jenkins of the fundamental principle that the diocesan bishop alone bears the responsibility to provide an authoritative interpretation.

4. I reminded Father Jenkins that he indicated that he consulted presidents of other Catholic universities, and at least indirectly, consulted other bishops, since he asked those presidents to share with him those judgments of their own bishops. However, he chose not to consult his own bishop who, as I made clear, is the teacher and lawgiver in his own diocese. I reminded Father Jenkins that I was not informed of the invitation until after it was accepted by the president. I mentioned again that it is at the heart of the diocesan bishop’s pastoral responsibility to teach as revealed in sacred Scripture and the tradition. (“Lumen Gentium,” 20; and “Christus Dominus,” 2.) I reminded him that it is also central to the university’s relationship to the church. (“Ex corde ecclesiae,” 27 & 28; Gen. Norm., Art. 5, §§ 1-3.)

5. Another key point. In his letter to Bishop Olmsted and in the widespread publicity, which has taken place as the points in the letter have been made public, Father Jenkins declared the invitation to President Obama does not “suggest support” for his actions, because he has expressed and continues to express disagreement with him on issues surrounding protection of life. I wrote that the outpouring of hundreds of thousands who are shocked by the invitation clearly demonstrates, that this invitation has, in fact, scandalized many Catholics and other people of goodwill. In my office alone, there have been over 3,300 messages of shock, dismay and outrage, and they are still coming in. It seems that the action in itself speaks so loudly that people have not been able to hear the words of Father Jenkins, and indeed, the action has suggested approval to many.

In the publicity surrounding the points Father Jenkins has made, he also says he is “following the document of the bishops” by “laying a basis for engagement with the president on this issue.” I indicated that I, like many others, will await to see what the follow up is on this issue between Notre Dame and President Obama.

6. As I have said in a recent interview and which I have said to Father Jenkins, it would be one thing to bring the president here for a discussion on healthcare or immigration, and no person of goodwill could rightly oppose this. We have here, however, the granting of an honorary degree of law to someone whose activities both as president and previously, have been altogether supportive of laws against the dignity of the human person yet to be born.

In my letter, I have also asked Father Jenkins to correct, and if possible, withdraw the erroneous talking points, which appeared in the South Bend Tribune and in other media outlets across the country. The statements which Father Jenkins has made are simply wrong and give a flawed justification for his actions.

I consider it now settled — that the USCCB document, “Catholics in Public Life,” does indeed apply in this matter.
The failure to consult the local bishop who, whatever his unworthiness, is the teacher and lawgiver in the diocese, is a serious mistake. Proper consultation could have prevented an action, which has caused such painful division between Notre Dame and many bishops — and a large number of the faithful.

That division must be addressed through prayer and action, and I pledge to work with Father Jenkins and all at Notre Dame to heal the terrible breach, which has taken place between Notre Dame and the church. It cannot be allowed to continue.
I ask all to pray that this healing will take place in a way that is substantial and true, and not illusory. Notre Dame and Father Jenkins must do their part if this healing is to take place. I will do my part.

Sincerely yours in our Lord,
Most Reverend
John M. D’Arcy

Source
Statement to the faithful [diocesefwsb.org], 21 April 2009

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Why did not His Grace of South Bend avail himself of his rights as local ordinary to speak at the commencement, which he could have used as a "teaching opportunity" for the President, much in the manner that John Chrysostom used his bully pulpit in Hagia Sophia to take wayward Emperors and their consorts to task?

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I'm not sure where you got the idea that I don't think morals matter. I think morals matter a great deal, in fact. I'm honestly confused.


I am sorry, Alexis, I was in a rush to leave and did not articulate myself well. I was referring to this statement which you wrote,

Quote
I also don't care whether the government allows gay "marriage" or polygamy, and personally don't think sodomy laws should exist. The government is not my moral compass, thank goodness. The government can decide "marriage" exists between a cow and a peanut for all I care.


and I meant that we disagree on government legislating morals....

After all, the greatest code of law that ever existed was the ten commandments, given to us by GOD Himself, and all these commandments are moral commandments-- and societies have always based their laws on them...

I would be upset if cows and peanuts can get married, and I would also be upset if polygamy were legal... wink

The way things are going, that may not be too far off!! cry frown

Actually, I think that this is where generations clash and see things differently. Alot of people here may not like Pat Robertson, but he once said something which was incredibly perceptive. He said that the young generation is in something of an 'alternate' universe. Your generation has been indoctrinated to see things very differently from how those over 35 see things.

Anyway, sorry for getting you into this thread. You know I love you and respect you. You are one of the finest young men of the 'alternate universe' ( grin LOL grin) that I have ever met. smile (now if you and my daughter could only meet!) *wink*

Be well!
Christ is Risen!
Alice






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ajk,

I'll definitely take a look at that some time tomorrow afternoon/evening. In the meantime, I have two tests tomorrow...

Alice,

It's all good! I have a responsibility to explain my publicly-posted views. I have learned a good bit in the last few pages of this thread, and am not opposed to changing my opinion on the matters if I feel compelled by the arguments.

I do think you're right about the generational gap. We are all a product of our time and generations, and indoctrination occurs no matter what, I guess.

This has been a positive exercise, so if people still want to post, well... continue to do so!

I would still like to hear more from Joe on Catholic teaching on religious liberty and its development in the last 150 years, and to try and ascertain from whomever is willing to share their views if, in fact, a Catholic is bound by faith to believe that the State's laws should always reflect the Teachings of the Church. I suspect ajk's article touches on some of that?

Alithos Anesti!
Alexis

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One more university is awarding an honorary degree to an abortion advocate. This commencement is also being boycotted. New Orleans archbishop will not attend Xavier U. commencement honoring abortion advocate [catholicculture.org]

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Isn't he reciving a honaray degree from Catholic University of Americia?
Another thing do any of you think the bisops have gotten kind of lax with discipline and enforcement of church doctrine since Vatican II?

Maybe we should notify the Holy Office wink

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Excellent news!

Professor Mary Ann Glendon [en.wikipedia.org] has declined the Laetare Medal from Notre Dame and will not after all attend the university's commencement.

She explains her reasons for this in a letter to Fr Jenkins, the president of Notre Dame (source [firstthings.com]). In effect, she is refusing to provide Fr Jenkins with a "Catholic alibi."

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