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Originally Posted by theophan
Your original question concerning finding a common basis for defining marriage with non-Christians struck me as in the same category as defining water as dry.
Then why oppose or condemn premarital sex or same-sex marriage amongst non-Christians or Christians of other traditions if the Church's and the world's conception of marriage are so separate and absolutely dissimilar?

Last edited by NeoChalcedonian; 04/23/09 06:54 PM.
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So we have two positions being advocated here.

1) There is a general category of male-female relations legitimately called marriage within which Christian marriage is a unique, outstanding particular.

2) Orthodox Christian marriage is so absolutely separate and dissimilar from what the world or even other Christians call marriage that we have no categories to assess the merits of unions outside the Church.

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Then why oppose or condemn premarital sex or same-sex marriage amongst non-Christians or Christians of other traditions if the Church's and the world's conception of marriage are so separate and absolutely dissimilar?


1. why oppose or condemn premarital sex or same-sex marriage

We oppose both of these on objective grounds, as have all Christians until this past century. The objective grounds spring from the Church's Deposit of Faith and the Holy Spirit leading her into all Truth, as the Lord told us He would.

2. We are in the world to leaven it with Christ's teaching, something that seemed to have been happening up until farily recently. We can see this from the corpus of laws that we have that have made these types of behavior punishable at law. We are also seeing it being eroded.

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Orthodox Christian marriage is so absolutely separate and dissimilar from what . . . other Christians


I don't understand where this comes from. How do "other Christians" differ? And if other people calling themselves Christian have ceased to hold the teaching, can we legitimately call them Christian?

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we have no categories to assess the merits of unions outside the Church


Are you assuming that the Church has no objective standard proceeding form the Deposit of Faith by which to categorize what marriage is and ought to be? Are you then assuming that the Church's standard is not objective, applicable to all people in all cultures and in all situations?

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Originally Posted by theophan
I don't understand where this comes from. How do "other Christians" differ? And if other people calling themselves Christian have ceased to hold the teaching, can we legitimately call them Christian?

1. How do people enter marriage?
2. When does a new marriage come into being?


The Torah, the New Testament, the Apostles and the early Church have no formal teaching on these matters; they defer to local customs and follow the laws of existing authorities. Many Protestant denominations and ministers *recommend* getting married in the Church but sometimes people just get a state license and nobody is punished. God has not given us objective, universally valid answers to the above two questions.

Originally Posted by theophan
Are you assuming that the Church has no objective standard proceeding form the Deposit of Faith by which to categorize what marriage is and ought to be? Are you then assuming that the Church's standard is not objective, applicable to all people in all cultures and in all situations?

I am saying that *if* one assumes this:

"Orthodox Christian marriage is so absolutely separate and dissimilar from what the world or even other Christians call marriage that we have no categories to assess the merits of unions outside the Church."

then there is no basis upon which to critique non-marital heterosexual relations (and possibly same-sex unions) as an evil because outside the Church nothing legitimizes or sanctifies such relations.

Last edited by NeoChalcedonian; 04/23/09 07:33 PM.
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From S.V. Troitsky, one of the most revered Orthodox canonists of last century:

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“From the sovereign character of the family Roman law drew the conclusion that it was not the state that made a marriage a marriage, and not a religious organization, but exclusively the marrying parties themselves, their mutual love, their will, their agreement. Nuptiae solo affectu fiunt, nuptiae consensu contrahentium fiunt, consensus facit nuptias – such was the basic position of Roman and Byzantine, ecclesiastical and civil law in the first 8 centuries of Christian history. Moreover, in more ancient times the religious form of marriage, confarreatio, was necessary not to make marriage valid, but for manus, that is, for the acquisition by the husband of authority over the wife.

“But if marriage is concluded by the marrying parties themselves, then in what does the task of the State in relation to marriage consist? Only in verifying its existence for itself, only in registering the marriage, to the extent that this was necessary for the resolution of various questions of family and inheritance law. And Roman law left it to the will of the marrying parties to choose any form of marriage they liked, contenting itself with the minimum for its own verification.

“In ancient Rome there existed a view with regard to marriage that was the opposite of our own. We have a presumption that those living together are not married. In our time a married couple must itself prove with documents, witnesses, etc., that it is in lawful wedlock. In Rome, by contrast, the presumption was that those living together were married.

“Every permanent sexual relationship of a fully entitled man and woman was seen as a marriage. ‘We must see living together with a free woman as marriage, and not concubinage,’ writes the noted Roman jurist Modestinus. Therefore it was not the marrying parties that had to prove that they were in wedlock, but a third interested party had to prove that there existed some kind of impediment which did not allow one to see this living together as marriage. To put it more briefly, onus probandi lay not on the spouses, but on the third parties. Only when there was a basis for thinking that it was in the family or property interests of the parties to present a temporary relationship as marriage was the question of the formal criteria of marriage raised. But even in this case Roman law contented itself with the minimum. For this it was sufficient, for example, to show that there had been de facto living together for a year, the testimonies of witnesses that the parties had indeed agreed to marry or to call each other Mr. and Mrs., that some kind of marital rite had been performed, the presentation of documents with regard to the dowry, etc. In a word, speaking in legal terms, in Rome the participation of the State in the conclusion of a marriage did not have a constitutive, but only a declarative character.

“Byzantine legislation adopted the same point of view until the end of the 9th century. The constitution of the Emperors Theodosius and Valentinian in 428 says that for the validity of marriage neither a wedding feast is necessary, nor documents on a dowry, nor any festivity, since no law hindered the marriage of fully entitled people. Marriage acquired validity by means of agreement and the testimony of witnesses.
Although Justinian, in his novella 74 of December, 537, prescribed that middle-class people should go to church to conclude their marriage, this demand was based on considerations, not of a religious, but only of an economic character, which is indicated by the fact that the very separation of this class of people was in accordance with their property census. And indeed, Justinian demanded that middle-class people should go to church not in order to be crowned, but only in order to draw up a document on marriage in front of an ecclesiastical lawyer and three or four clergy as witnesses. But even this formality did not last long, and on December 11, 542, novella 117 (ch. 4) freed even middle-class people from this obligation. Only upper-class people (illustres et senatores), again for reasons having to do with property, had to write documents on the dowry, while the lower classes were not obliged to write any documents at all. In the same novella 74 (chapter 5), Justinian gave the significance of an optional form of marriage, not to crowning, but to the oath ‘to take as my wife’ while touching the Bible. Only in a legislative collection of the 8th century, more precisely: in the collection of 741 of the iconoclast emperors Leo the Isaurian and Constantine Copronymus known as the Eclogue, was a blessing as a juridical form of concluding a marriage mentioned for the first time. But even here a blessing is not an obligatory form for the conclusion of a marriage, but only one of four forms of marriage, the choice of which depends on external circumstances and the will of the marrying parties; in other words, here a Church blessing is only an optional form of marriage, and even then not always, but only in case of necessity, and it is precisely the Eclogue that prescribes that marriage must be concluded by means of the drawing up of a document of a definite form, and when, as a consequence of the poverty of the spouses, it is impossible to draw up the document, the marriage can be concluded either through the agreement of the parents, or through a Church blessing, or through the witness of friends (Eclogue, II, 1,3,8). It is exactly the same with crowning; it is an optional form of marriage, say also the later laws of the Byzantine emperors – the Prochiron of 878 (IV, 6,14,17,27), the Epanagoge of 886 (XVI, 1) and the collection known as Blastaris’ Syntagma of 1335 (G., 2, translation of Ilyinsky, p. 103). ‘Marriage,’ we read in Blastaris, ‘is concluded by means of a blessing, or crowning, or an agreement’.

“That is how the ancient Church, too, looked on the form of marriage. The basic source of the Church’s teaching on marriage, the Bible, does not say that the institution of marriage arose some time later as something established by the State or the Church. Here we find another teaching on marriage. Neither the Church nor the State is the source of marriage. On the contrary: marriage is the source of both the Church and the State. Marriage precedes all the social and religious organizations. It was established already in Paradise, it was established by God Himself. God brings the woman to Adam, and Adam himself proclaims his marital union independently of any earthly authority, even the authority of parents (Genesis 2.24; cf. Matthew 19.6). Thus the first marriage was concluded ‘by the mercy of God’. In the first marriage the husband and wife are the bearers of the highest earthly authority, they are sovereigns to whom the whole of the rest of the world is subject (Genesis 1.28). The family is the first form of the Church, it is the ‘little Church’, as Chrysostom calls it, and at the same time it is the source also of the State as an organization of power, since according to the Bible the basis of every authority of man over man is to be found in the words of God on the authority of the husband over the wife: ‘he will be your lord’ (Genesis 3.16). Thus the family is not only a little Church, but also a little State. And if that is so, then the relationship of the family with the Church and the State must have a character of equality, the character of international and inter-Church relations. Therefore the performers of marriage are considered in the sources of the Church’s teaching to be the spouses themselves, and the participation of a representative of authority, whether of the Church or of the State, is not an essential element of marriage, is not a condition of its validity. In the whole Bible, both in the Old and in the New Testaments, we do not find a single word on any kind of obligatory form of marriage, although here we do find many prescriptions of a ritual character. The relationship of the Church and the State to marriage is expressed not in its conclusion, but only in its verification, in its recognition as an already accomplished fact. Just as the recognition of authority in a State on the part of another State does not give this authority new rights, but is only the condition of normal relations between these States, so the participation of a representative of society, whether of the Church or of the State, is the condition of normal relations between them and the new family.

“Therefore the relationship of the Church to marriage was one of recognition. This idea is well expressed in the Gospel account of the marriage in Cana of Galilee (John 1.1-11). Reference is sometimes made to this account as a proof of the teaching that the accomplisher of marriage is the priest. In fact, the Gospel account is not in agreement with this point of view. The Gospel makes no mention whatsoever of the participation of Christ in the rite of the conclusion of the marriage. Christ came with His apostles as a guest; he was invited to the wedding feast. But participation in the wedding feast was, generally speaking, an expression of the recognition of marriage on the part of society, and the presence of Christ and the apostles had the significance of a recognition of the Old Testament institution of marriage on the part of the new Church.

“This is also how the ancient Christian Church herself looked on the form of marriage. Her teaching on the form of marriage coincides with the teaching of the Bible and Roman law. Therefore the ancient Christians, who did not permit the slightest compromise with the State pagan religion and preferred a martyr’s death to participation in the smallest pagan rite, entered into marriage in the time of the persecutions and later in exactly the same way as the other citizens of the Roman State. ‘They, that is, the Christians, conclude marriage in the same way as everyone,’ says an ancient Christian writer of the 2nd century in the Epistle to Diognetus (V, 6). ‘Each of us recognizes as his wife the woman whom he took in accordance with the laws published by you (i.e. the pagans),’ says Athenagoras in his Apology (33, P.G. 6:965) submitted to the Emperor Marcus Aurelius (166-177). St. Ambrose of Milan says that Christians take wives ‘in accordance with the tablets’, that is, in accordance with the Roman laws of the 12 tablets (On the Institution of Virginity, 6; P.L. 16:316). Chrysostom says definitively: ‘Marriage is concluded in no other way than by agreement according to the laws’ (Homily 56 on Genesis, 29; P.G. 54:488). The first canon of the Council of Laodicea demands that marriage should be concluded only ‘freely and lawfully’, that is, in accordance with the Roman laws. The ancient Church completely assimilated the basic teaching of Roman marital law, that marriage is concluded by the spouses themselves, that consensus facit nuptias. This teaching is found among the most authoritative representatives of Church teaching both in the East and in the West, for example, in John Chrysostom, Balsamon, Ambrose of Milan, Blessed Augustine, Isidore, Pope Nicholas I, and others.

“Finally, we find the same teaching in the official collections of Byzantine law which have been adopted by the Orthodox Church.” (The Philosophy of Christian Marriage,pp. 174-181)

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I've been wondering and now will ask. What is your point in this thread?

It seems there is a lot of space being taken up for no reason.

The Church has been given the task of bringing a fallen world to Christ. In doing so, she has the task of teaching about relationships in this world and the consequences of those relationships and the actions flowing from them in the next.

So what is the point here?

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Originally Posted by theophan
I've been wondering and now will ask. What is your point in this thread?

It seems there is a lot of space being taken up for no reason.

The Church has been given the task of bringing a fallen world to Christ. In doing so, she has the task of teaching about relationships in this world and the consequences of those relationships and the actions flowing from them in the next.

So what is the point here?

I raise the question of what marriage is and its theologically normative starting point in order to increase my personal understanding of the relevant theological and historical issues touching on marriage so that I can better communicate that teaching to fellow Christians and inquiring non-Christians, in addition to reinforcing and clarifying the moral principles that will inevitably guide my own actions. There are two questions in particular I have researched that I presently do not have answers for:

(1) What is marriage for Christians and non-Christians such that it legitimizes formerly illicit sexual relations?

(2) How do people enter marriage or when does a new marriage come into being? Does this question have a normative theological answer or does revelation itself defer to pre-existing laws and customs?

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(1) What is marriage for Christians and non-Christians such that it legitimizes formerly illicit sexual relations?


To answer the first part of this question, marriage between one man and one woman is the basic social unit of any society. The second part varies by society and culture, if you believe Margaret Meade and her anthropoligical studies of cutlures. I would eliminate "formerly illicit" because it reveals a bias for culture. There are cultures where an older woman "breaks in" a younger man prior to his marriage and vice versa--see Meade.

Quote
(2) How do people enter marriage or when does a new marriage come into being? Does this question have a normative theological answer or does revelation itself defer to pre-existing laws and customs?


The first question is answered above: it varies by culture and society. The second question involves a set of assumptions you must make if you buy into what being a Christian is about. If Revelation "defered" to pre-existng laws and customs, it would either not be Revelation or we would have a God who is tied to the fallen world He came to return to what He intended in the first place.

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I find Troitsky's commentary interesting for a different reason.

From what he says, would it not seem that the Latin theology of marriage is much more reflective of the position of the Church during the first millennium? After all, in Latin theology, the couple itself gives the Sacrament to each other. Marriage is not conferred on us by priests, as in modern Byzantine theology.

Just wondering.

Alexis

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Marriage is not conferred on us by priests, as in modern Byzantine theology.


Alexis:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

I don't believe that Byzantine practice is any less ancient than Roman practice. All of the Churches of the East, both Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian seem to have the same approach. So to think that the Latin/Roman practice is more ancient seems nto to be the case. We have differences because of different starting points.

In Christ,

BOB

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Bob,

I am not erudite enough to have any idea on the subject. I was just asking because this seems to be what Troitsky is saying.

Alexis

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(2) How do people enter marriage or when does a new marriage come into being?


Neo-Ch:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

After I left, I thought about this example an acquaintance related to me concerning his tour of duty in Viewnam many years ago. The man is a Protestant Christian by profession, but that is not meant to cast aspersions on our Protestant brethren.

It seems that during his tour, this gentleman decided to "marry" a young Vietnamese girl so he didn't have to take chances on the use of professionals. He did all the cultural things necessary--gave a dowry, went through a Buddhist ceremony, and went to see her regularly. When he was shipped back to the States, he left her. When I asked what would become of her he shrugged and said that an abandoned woman would probably be killed to preserve the family's honor.

That was a marriage in that culture. I cringe to think of the attitude displayed toward another human being, toward marriage, and toward that young woman's life. That's why I have to separate the concepts of marriage in a culture from what the Lord seems to be pointing to in Scripture and the Holy Spirit has lead the Church to teach.

BOB

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Neo-Chalcedonian:

So what is it you're looking for?

BOB

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Originally Posted by theophan
I cringe to think of the attitude displayed toward another human being, toward marriage, and toward that young woman's life.
Bob,

Thanks for sharing this--I also cringed when I read it.


Originally Posted by theophan
That's why I have to separate the concepts of marriage in a culture from what the Lord seems to be pointing to in Scripture and the Holy Spirit has lead the Church to teach.
However, I'm still missing something in your drawing this conclusion. What I see here is someone culturally conditioned by our Western prejudices to think of his relationship with the Vietnamese girl as not being a "real" marriage, whereas in God's eyes it was. Yes, the marriage was defective, but that was due to the young man's sin and not to any external condition regarding the marriage.

I've been enjoying this thread, and I thank NeoChalcedonian for introducing it.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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