www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Religious Extremism, a thoughful piece

Based on what you've written here, I can understand that you say "Her essay was excellent." I happen to like historical fiction; what I don't like is fictional history. That is especially so when the latter then equivocates about whether it is even fiction or not. Clearly that is a game at which Kathleen McGowan and company are quite adept. So you consider "excellent" the analysis of a woman who claims to be from the bloodline of the union of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Is that credible? Or is it that she's wrong on that little feature but right on everything else?

Here is my analysis for you: Try tempering your own bluster with a consideration of all the facts. The Catholic Church has had formal and public ceremonies dedicated to reconciliation and acknowledging the terrible sins committed in her name. What other church or institution has done so in such a public way?

A further analysis:


I find your demagoguery -- appealing to popular prejudices by false and inflated claims -- as exhibited by your extreme words above and manipulative rhetoric, most disgusting. Let me be very clear: demagoguery, appealing to popular prejudices, false and inflated claims, extreme words and manipulative rhetoric: and yet you chide the Pope for his action as a youth.

I feel soiled by the filth of the Catholic Church. I feel more soiled by attempts to stop or condemn those who try to expose this filth and to prevent it from happening again. I couldn't care less about McGowan's claims to ancient bloodlines. I care that she has written an essay that expresses both the causes for being upset and the emotion of being upset.

It is about the Catholic institution's sins and its instanigence. And because of this, people are leaving; and they will continue to leave, unless it changes.

I am sorry for causing offense.

But what you conservatives don't seem to understand is that the Catholic Church, in many ways, is a standing, daily offense to me and to others like me. And that is because of its closed mind and its closed power stuctures, because of its sins, and because of its happy attacks on those who try to explore the truth.

-- John

The Catholic Church isn't about conservatism or liberalism or any other -ism. It's only about being faithful to the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. If that causes offense, then so be it. But don't confuse the institution as a whole with its individual members, or vice versa.

That's true. I repent.

-- John

John,

You fail to realize (or care) that McGowan is making things up to be upset about. You are too. That should concern anyone who is honest. Your attacks here are false and dishonest. You also failed to answer the questions put to you, so we must assume that you know you were speaking falsely. As I stated, there are failures within the Catholic Church because there is sin within the Catholic Church. Just criticism is appropriate and it is heard (in the case of the child abuse and homosexual priest problem the Holy Father has taken steps to admit the problem, apologize, attempt to heal the damage, and to prevent it happening again). What else would you seek? What you have offered is false because it far out of proportion to the problem and it is wrong to accuse falsely.

As to people leaving the Church if you look closely you will see that most of them do so for one of two reasons: 1) they reject the teachings of the Catholic Church (having been led into secularism or something worse, or found something missing in their local parish) or 2) they are hurt by something the Catholic Church has done (most because a priest insulted them, a small percentage are for worse things that are criminal). One does not change the Teachings of the Catholic Church to keep people in it. Truth is not negotiable. One can - and should - call upon those within the Church (laymen, religious, deacons, priests and bishops) to live lives of faithfulness so that they do not hurt others.

I would urge you to make your accusations responsibly, based upon real, demonstrable evidence instead of emotion that grows from false or exaggerated claims. When you make things up or exaggerate all out of proportion you render anything you have to say as not credible.

I would also urge you to stop not put your faith in princes or in sons of men for in them there is no salvation. Put instead your faith in Christ. Seek Him first and only. And study what the Church teaches about things. Eventually you will see that the way you think now and how buy into such falseness is wrong.

John

I see you've not addressed my points let alone answered my questions. You instead respond with more of the same: abusive language, uttered without qualification, on the Catholic Church. If ranting is the way you express yourself, I would just ignore it. That it is directed as it is against the Church, I do not. I am aware of the shortcomings and reprehensible conduct of many in the Church. But what is this "filth" that you feel is soiling you that is "of the Catholic Church"? Perhaps you just have no concept of the meaning of The Church, but just feel good speaking of it with great conviction and invective.

If you want a clear-cut example of extremism concerning religion, as the thread is named, just keep reading your words above. I think you should feel soiled, but it's because you've soiled yourself.

WHAT ?


You accuse me of being dishonest? My remarks might be inaccurate: I don't think so, but I'm willing to acknowledge that possibility. But dishonest? That implies deceit and an intent to deceive. And that is a public slur against my personal character. Prove your accusation of me by clear and convincing evidence, or recant of your defamation of my character.

The only thing I repent of, John, is blaming an entire institution for the vile filth of much of its leadership and some its defenders.

The Catholic Church is obsolete: in its organization and in its some of moral teachings. It refuses to be open and transparent and accountable and subject to public scrutiny. It forbids the election or the recall of its leadership. It refuses to update its moral teachings to meet the realities of the times. And it has been part of atrocities in the past and in recent times --which neither revisionism nor outrage can go back in time and change. The Catholic Church was involved in the Crusades, in the Inquisition, and so on, up to the present day of allowing child molesting priests to continue till that vileness was exposed. This isn't about Christ or the Gospel or the many, many saints and good people who kept the Gospel in the Catholic Church. This is about an institution that got substantially corrupt because there were inadequate checks and balances on its power.

The essay in the original post and the subsequent debate clearly highlights a basic point:

You and your fellow conservatives are in real danger of losing the majority of the membership of the Catholic Church in the United States. That is already occurring, based upon a 31% national attendance rate in the U.S. for Sunday Mass and on other factors that are well known. And a lot of that is because conservatives like you defend an institution that instead needs substantial reform.

If a religion accommodates its surrounding culture too much, it goes away: because there isn't enough to differentiate it to make it worthwhile for people to join.

But if a religion is too rigid or hidebound, it also goes away: because people won't be able to function with it within their normal lives

Now, I'm going away for the weekend on business. And perhaps in a few days tempers will cool.

-- John

Read your own post for the evidence. Do you really consider your comparison of Pope Benedict XVI to Hitler to be honest? It’s not. It’s dishonest. As is the rest. What you posted was false and misleading. To say things falsely is dishonest.

Again, make your case with actual evidence. Answer the questions put to you that you justify your accusations. There are enough real problems in the Church to be addressed (and just criticism is part of addressing them) without falsely exaggerating or creating them out of whole cloth.

The issue is not about liberalism or conservationism. It is about right and wrong. It's about faithfulness to Jesus Christ and His Gospel.

John,

Our blessed Holy Father Pope Benedict has said often enough that we may be headed towards a smaller Church, comprised mainly of those who actually believe that the Bride of Christ teaches!

It is not the Pope's job to placate dissenters and heretics. It is not the Church's job to deny the gravely immoral sin of birth control just because some dishonest bishops covered up for pedophilic and homosexual priests. Yes, it is sad that people are leave the Church. Their eternal salvation is at stake. But don't think for one minute that it's just the result of the Church's doctrinal policies and slow, painstakingly slow, move towards enforcing Church Teachings. Do a numbers check and see how many people "peaced out" after the misimplementation of Vatican II and radical liturgical reforms. Maybe that's the connection.

Alexis

Has a rabid Seventh Day Adventist hijacked your account, John? The above is just pure crazy ranting. You're upset because the Church doesn't update its moral teachings? Because it isn't a democratic organization? I suppose the Church should've updated its moral teachings during the time of the Roman persecutions, so it would be licit to engage in orgies, and sacrifice to pagan gods, and throwing Christians into the lions' den. How terribly backward of the Church.

Your posts have devolved into straw men vicious attacks on the Church, the very means of salvation which Christ offers to all men. Please try to limit the vitriol.

Alexis

Sir,

This is extremely offensive to me and to anyone who loves the Church and the Holy Father. I'm sure you know as well as I do that the young Joseph Ratzinger did not join the Hitler Youth voluntarily. What would you have done in similar circumstances? What would any of us have done?

Tu autem quis es, qui iudicas proximum? But who art thou that judgest thy neighbour?

The Holy Father was a Nazi deserter. Are you going to blame his as a traitor, too?

Alexis

What is this an Attack on the Holy Father for what? saving his own life by joining.

"It refuses to update its moral teachings to meet the realities of the times."

So the Church should be democratic and put morality up for a vote. If a majority of voting Catholics want same-sex marriage and abortion, then the Church should embrace those two very productive realities of our times? Much rot would be produced from that.

Sir,

It is true that there is "filth" in the Catholic Church and we should all feel soiled by it. The Holy Father himself has said as much (source [catholicnews.com]). But that does not justify personal attacks on the Holy Father. The fact that the young Joseph Ratzinger was enrolled in the Hitler Youth against his will proves nothing. To bring it up like this is really hitting below the belt. Shame on you!

I am praying for you!