1 members (San Nicolas),
375
guests, and
101
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,514
Posts417,578
Members6,167
|
Most Online4,112 Mar 25th, 2025
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 302
Roman Catholic Member
|
Roman Catholic Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 302 |
What should you expect going into an Anglican Use Mass?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264 |
Personally, I wonder why the Latin Church does not simply make this one of the general options among many for Latin priests to celebrate the Holy Mass. My understanding is that it is limited to those who are given explicit permission to celebrate.
It cannot possibly be more complex than celebrating the 1962 Missal!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678 Likes: 1 |
Gordo,
The thing is, the Anglican Use is for a specific type of Roman Catholic: those coming from the Anglican liturgical tradition. It is also tied up, historically, in an ethnicity (English), or a restricted geographical area, at least, and would be foreign to Roman Catholics whose liturgical and cultural heritage have nothing to do with Anglican liturgy.
I'm probably not expressing myself very well, but that, at least, is why I don't think it makes sense to allow it as an option for all Roman Rite priests.
Alexis
Last edited by Logos - Alexis; 05/07/09 11:18 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,268
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,268 |
Based on the Pastoral Provision issued by Pope Paul VI in 1980, Anglican Use parishes and the authorized use of the Anglican Use liturgy is limited to former Episcopalian parishes which converted, or convert, in their entirety (pastor[s] and congregation) in the United States. It has not been allowed anywhere else, even in the UK.
I think these are the only Anglican Use parishes and missions extant in the United States:
(1) Our Lady of the Atonement, San Antonio, TX; (2) Our Lady of Walsingham, Houston, TX; (3) St. Mary the Virgin, Arlington, TX; (4) St. Thomas More, Fort Worth, TX; (5) St. Margaret of Scotland, Austin, TX; (6) St. Anselm of Canterbury Catholic Mission, Corpus Christi, TX; (7) St. Athanasius Congregation, Boston, Massachusetts; (8) St. Thomas More Society, St. Clare Church, Scranton, PA; (9) Church of the Good Shepherd, Columbia, SC; (10) Atlanta Area AU Catholic Laity, Dunwoody, GA; and (11) California AU Catholic Laity, St. Francis of Assisi Church, La Quinta, CA.
All Anglican Use parishes are under the local Latin Rite ordinary, who may authorize the exceptional celebration of the Anglican Use liturgy outside of these parishes and missions.
Not all convert Episcoplian pastors though are allowed to celebrate the Anglican Use liturgy. Thus, it has been observed somewhere that once the parish priest of an Anglican Use congregation dies and no authorized successor is available, the parish is absorbed into the mainstream Latin diocese and the NO or TLM is foisted as the liturgy of choice.
Amado
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678 Likes: 1 |
Are there, then, more Episcopal parishes which have mass-converted to Orthodoxy than to Catholicism?
Alexis
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 302
Roman Catholic Member
|
Roman Catholic Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 302 |
St. Terese of the little flower parish in Kansas City Mo. also has an Anglican use Mass.
Last edited by Altar Server; 05/07/09 05:36 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1 |
As Fr Serge said, the Anglican Use Mass is a splice of catholicised Episcopal 1979-book Rite I (thou and thee) (something a lot of Anglo-Catholic parishes and priests in the Episcopal Church already were doing), with a thou-and-thee translation of the Roman Canon and ICEL/Novus Ordo bits in certain places (the offertory: I don't think Episcopal 1979 has offertory prayers, and Anglo-Catholics were already using these... and the words of institution at the consecration: the awful paraphrase 'for you and for all').
The English Missal is not an official Roman or Anglican book (except for local Anglican bishops' approval back in the day) but a thou-and-thee translation of the Tridentine Mass done unofficially by Anglo-Catholics about 90 years ago, with the Book of Common Prayer (BCP) prayers given as options in some parts.
The Anglican Missal is unofficial as well and has more of the Book of Common Prayer in it than the English Missal does.
I didn't know there were so many AU parishes (RC national parishes that have permission to use the AU Book of Divine Worship, again like its Mass a mix of US 1979 BCP and Novus Ordo).
AFAIK only one ex-Episcopal parish has switched to the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate of the Orthodox, St Mark's, Denver (they lost their building and had to rebuild when they switched). I think only one, St Mary the Virgin in Arlington, Texas, switched to AU RC (they kept their building). But I think there are four times more AWRV parishes than AU RC.
AWRV's Anglican-based services are not Novus Ordo at all, more BCP and Anglican Missal with a few edits (like no filioque). They also have a few Roman Rite places doing more or less the English Missal: the Tridentine Mass in English.
And the Antiochians train a few new priests to do it. Not so with AU RC.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 33
Member
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 33 |
St. Peter, Fort Worth is also former ECUSA now Antiochian. It switched in 1992. I am a member there. The Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon, which we use, is basically the liturgy from the 1928 BCP with the following changes: 1. omits filioque 2. an explicit descending epiclesis is added to the Anaphora 3. commemoration of Orthodox hierarchs 4. invocation of The Blessed Virgin and saints added 5. the prayer "I believe O Lord, and I confess ... " is added after the elevation of the host
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1 |
You know, in passing I remembered St Peter's, Fort Worth but forgot by the time I posted. Thank you.
I think the St Tikhon Mass is really the American Missal with those changes, a book even more Prayer Booky than the Anglican Missal, essentially the US 1928 BCP Communion service fitted to be like the Tridentine Mass (prep office at the foot of the altar, minor propers, censings, offertory, Last Gospel) but with the BCP's collects and readings on Sundays and BCP feasts. Is 'I believe, O Lord, and I confess' right after the elevation of the host, of the chalice, or in its Byzantine Rite place right before Communion?
To be fair, although the AWRV hasn't got the AU RC problem of Novusising by decree (using ICEL's 'for you and for all' does not 'make it more Catholic'!) it has self-byzantinisation just like a Ukrainian or Ruthenian Catholic centuries ago having clean-shaven priests and putting statues in churches. So you see some St Tikhon AWRV parishes with icons covering the walls, long-bearded priests, censers with bells and ripidia (some of which are cute byzantinisations from when they were still Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians). Their way of saying 'Woo hoo! We're Orthodox!' I suppose.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 100
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 100 |
I think it is a beginning. Hopefully they will also start using Catholic priests to celebrate this rite.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678 Likes: 1 |
the awful paraphrase 'for you and for all'). Yes, well the new ICEL translations to be implemented in the next couple years have dealt with that little sore spot. GreggP, Could you elaborate on what prayers to the Blessed Virgin and other saints have been added, and where in the liturgy? Alexis
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1 |
Here's some of the St Tikhon order of Mass. [ members.tripod.com] (This version doesn't have the Byzantine prayer before Communion; this [ stpaulsorthodox.org] does.) There's the ninefold Kyrie from the Roman Rite and the Gloria is where it is in the Roman Rite, not after Communion like in US 1928. At the end of the Prayers for the Whole State of Christ's Church: And give us grace so to follow the good examples of blessed Mary, the Ever-Virgin Mother of God, (Saint N.), and all Thy Saints, that, through their intercessions, we with them may be partakers of Thy heavenly kingdom. Grant this, O Father, for Jesus Christ's sake, our only Mediator and Advocate. Amen. One change to the Canon of the Mass is something Anglo-Catholics sometimes do: adding the Roman Canon's memento of the dead. And I see that the Byzantine prayer right before Communion is... right before Communion.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3 |
"So you see some St Tikhon AWRV parishes with icons covering the walls, long-bearded priests, censers with bells and ripidia (some of which are cute byzantinisations from when they were still Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians). "
Actually, in the UK a lot of C of E churches have icons these days. The gift shop at St. Paul's Cathedral had so many I thought I must have wandered into an Orthodox book store. They're so . . . tasteful, and multicultural, too! Not that they understand or accept the theology of icons (I suspect that the WRV folks do, though). As regards beards, I would say that a majority of C or E priests sport them, except I am not sure that a majority of C of E priests are men (including the males, but that is another story).
So, it's not a WRV thing, its something common to the entire Anglican-Episcopalian movement for some time now.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 302
Roman Catholic Member
|
Roman Catholic Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 302 |
Aren't there some WRV parishes that use the liturgy of St. Gregory the Great?
|
|
|
|
|