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Joined: Feb 2005
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Oh, was that what the courts permitted? I would like to see that reference and I am sure many others would also.
As for a statue of limitations for crimes against children, there is never a good reason, ever.
In IC XC, Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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I suspect you're right, Pavel Ivanovich, about the name "Christian Brother." Yet it is sad, terribly sad!
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Father Anthony, I don't have a reference. But in a country where there is any semblance of the rule of law no court can ban anyone from making a compaint to police. If there is indeed such a ban, as you seem to suggest, then that would be truly shocking. Even if the commission as such could not make a complaint, at least its individual members would be bound to do so or become accessories after the fact.
I will not debate you further on the question of the statute of limitation. There may be crimes that should not be covered by it. Crimes against humanity are such. I feel crimes against children are equal to crimes against humanity.
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Well,
You are suggesting many things without backing it up here concerning this case. It is either time to back it up or concede that there is possibly a "gag" order on the commission concerning the revelation of the perpetrators.
In IC XC, Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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There may be a gag order. I don't know. But that sounds suspiciously like a conspiracy theory. Can you back that theory up with facts?
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I will not debate you further on the question of the statute of limitation. There may be crimes that should not be covered by it. Crimes against humanity are such. I feel crimes against children are equal to crimes against humanity. And that is probably the first thing we agree in this matter. In IC XC, Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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No, but then I never implied that it was a conspiracy just a cover up of multiple serial criminal acts by the offenders and their overseeing authorities. But what I am asking for is back up to what you stated and implied since you seem to be privy to knowledge of Irish law in this matter.
In IC XC, Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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A cover up of a crime by more than one person is by definition the same as a conspiracy, because they would have to conspire to cover up the crime.
No, as I said I don't have a reference. I am not an expert on Irish criminal justice. I am only suggesting that in a state where there is any semblance of the rule of law (which ought to include Ireland) there are certain principles that apply. One is that if you know about a crime and fail to report it to the police, you thereby become an accessory after the fact.
But I am glad we at least agree on something. Maybe we should let the matter rest, at least until morning, as it is now after midnight here.
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I will let it rest but I am totally unmoved in any leniency that should be afforded them or any others that abuse children and pregnant women, let alone represent the Church in any shape, way, or form. Personally, I believe the outraged victims should take to the civil courts in a class-action suit and sue the offending order for all their worldly worth. Maybe then, they will realize that it could have been better to be forthright in the beginning.
In IC XC, Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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I agree that the guilty should be punished. I do not agree that the innocent should be punished with the guilty just for belonging to the same group, congregation, order, city, race, nation, religion or the like. I do not believe in collective punishment.
The defence rests.
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I do not agree. If you are protecting the guilty by shielding them through legal means, then you are assuming guilt by association by being an accessory to such acts by the implicit condoning of such barbarity. The Christian Brothers made their decision on how to shield their offenders, now let them pay the price in the fallout. Not even a statement of regret or request for forgiveness. Just the one order sought such, and that I think was a mature and responsible act on their part.
In IC XC, Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Father Anthony, I have slept on it and find that you have convinced me. It is clear that the Christian Brothers have failed miserably at many levels, including: - Failing to provide physically for the children with regard to housing, sanitation, food and clothing.
- Failing to provide spiritually and emotionally for the children in their care.
- Failing to train the young and inexperienced Brothers properly for their task of looking after children.
- Failing to provide a safe and reliable procedure for making complaints.
- Failing to stop the abuse that they knew was going on.
- Failing again and again to discipline their members.
- Failing to report serious abuse to the police, especially when their own members were involved.
Much of this could also be said for the other congregations involved. Yet the Christian Brothers have also failed to cooperate with the commission and assume responsibility for the crimes of their members. The only thing the Christian Brothers haven't failed at is protecting the names of their own members. And that will prove a pyrrhic victory, because it makes them all, as you say, guilty by association. It is clear from the Christian Brothers' submissions to the commission that they are very defensive and are not ready to assume responsibility for the crimes of their members. They do not seem to understand the damage they have done to the children they had in their care. Had the Christian Brothers, like the Rosminians [ childabusecommission.com], been willing to accept responsibility for the crimes of their members and learn from their failures, things might have been different. I am afraid the Christian Brothers have proved themselves unworthy of their name, and I have grave doubts about their future as a religious congregation. After all, who would want to join them after this!?
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Ah a convert!  Now if we only can get others on board we may actually make the Church reflective of what it should be!  There are more posts I have made here than in many months combined. I do not post concerning most issues, unless I feel my input is necessary. There are very few issues I am passionate and forceful about. Crimes against children though are one of the issues that top my list about being passionate about. I take very seriously the words of our Lord (and I paraphrase), "Bring the little children unto Me." Matthew 19:13-14 In IC XC, Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin writes in the Irish Times ( source [ irishtimes.com]): Monday, May 25, 2009
Tarnished orders have a last chance at redemption
ARCHBISHOP DIARMUID MARTIN OPINION: Those responsible for decades of abuse must act to restore credibility and help the survivors
WHERE DOES the church go from here? The church has failed people. The church has failed children. There is no denying that. This can only be regretted and it must be regretted. Yet “sorry” can be an easy word to say. When it has to be said so often, then “sorry” is no longer enough.
But “sorry” must always be the first word.
The Ryan report shocked me. But it did not totally surprise me. I was ordained 40 years ago today and at my ordination and that of a friend we had a group of former residents of industrial schools: people of our own age, great people and friends of ours.
As students we had worked in a hostel in Dublin for former residents of industrial schools, especially Artane. Later I worked in a centre in London for ex-prisoners, a large proportion of whom included generations of Irish industrial school residents. The stories they told then were not radically different from what the Ryan report presents, albeit in a systemic and objective way which reveals the horror in its integrity.
Sadly, the Ryan report came so late.
Anyone who had contact with ex-residents of Irish industrial schools at that time knew that what those schools were offering was, to put it mildly, poor-quality childcare by the standards of the time. The information was there.
A chaplain to Artane had put much of it writing. A few courageous and isolated journalists like Michael Viney spoke out. When the first efforts were made to reform Artane, it was patently evident that the only change possible was to close it down.
Someone wrote to me this week about an entirely different matter and said: “there is always a price to pay for not responding”. The church will have to pay that price in terms of its credibility.
The first thing the church has to do is to move out of any mode of denial. That was the position for far too long and it is still there.
Yes, there was abuse in other quarters. Yes, childcare policy in Ireland at the time was totally inadequate. But the church presented itself as different to others and as better than others and as more moral than others. Its record should have shown that and it did not. Ryan reveals church institutions where children were placed in the care of people with practically no morals.
Where the church is involved in social care it should be in the vanguard. That is different to a situation in which the church proclaims that it is in the vanguard. In industrial schools the church, with good intentions, became involved in a Victorian model of childcare and became more Victorian than the Victorians, and when Victorianism was shown to be wrong, those responsible did not have the foresight to recognise that and children were exposed to pathological Victorianism.
There is a sense of shock among many good priests and religious at what has happened. But that sense of shock should not slip into a situation in which they feel themselves almost as the victims. No one in the church must ever try to water down or reformulate the suffering of survivors. Let the survivors speak and tell their stories as they experienced them.
What do I say to the religious orders who have been identified as being responsible for what happened? Let me speak to them directly: I think that you have to ask and truly try to answer the question which Ryan has put to you: “What happened that you drifted so far away from your own charism?”
I believe that you owe it to your good members to try to answer that question thoroughly, honestly and in a transparent way. Your credibility and the credibility and survival of your charism depend on the honesty with which you go about that soul searching. This may be a painful task, but it is unavoidable if it is to be possible for your charism to survive. People are angry and disillusioned.
What was lost was more than just a charism. Somehow along the way the most essential dimension of the life of the followers of Jesus Christ got lost by many. The Christian message is a message of love. What the Ryan commission recounts is sadly so very far removed from that. In Jesus’s eyes the poor deserve the best and they did not receive it here.
Even where you have recognised what was wrong, the Ryan report must have brought home to you the extent of what went wrong in a manner which perhaps you were not able to imagine in the past. The facts are now clear and you have to take notice and make some new gesture of recognition.
An agreement was made with government seven years ago. The fact that the mechanisms of fulfilling your side of that agreement have not yet been brought to completion is stunning. There may have been legal difficulties, but they are really a poor excuse after so many years.
Whatever happens with regards to renegotiating that agreement, you cannot just leave things as they are. There are many ways in which substantial financial investment in supporting survivors and their families can be brought about, perhaps in creative ways which would once again redeem your own charism as educators of the poor. In many ways it is your last chance to render honour to charismatic founders and to so many good members of your congregations who feel tarnished.
Sadly, in a very short time another report on the sexual abuse of children will be published, this time about how such abuse was managed in the Archdiocese of Dublin of which I am archbishop. It will not be easy reading. The steps that have been taken to put in place good child safeguarding norms will never wipe away the sufferings of those who were abused. Let the truth, however, come out.
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FWIW, I remember that four or five years ago the CBS New Program "60 Minutes" did a story on this topic and it was rather graphic.
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