www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Ecumenical services

"Eastern Rite" is not the name of any religion; there are good reasons to avoid that expression completely.

Fr. Serge

I don't see the need to remove the Blessed Sacrament from the Tabernacle for an ecumenical prayer service.

Shalom,
Memo

Memo,


My reasoning for not reserving the Blessed Sacrament during an ecumenical prayer service is out of reverence for the sacrament.
I do see your point, though. We don't need to change our own behavior because guests are in the house. Christians of other denominations attend Mass at weddings and funerals and on other occasions and are welcome to be there but they usually don't genuflect or kneel or join in certain prayers.

"What we should not do is allow laypeople (including protestant ministers) to preach during Holy Mass, or invite baptized non-Catholics who don't believe in the Real Presence to share Holy Communion."

This is not only what we should not do, it is flat out not permitted in the Catholic Church.

Preaching should not be part of an ecumenical "prayer" service either. Comments can be made as to why the assembly is taking place, but no preaching.

Let's keep in mind also that these prayer services aren't something that take place on any regular basis. At least not where I live. They are usually spawned by an event or need in a given community.

I myself have preached a few times at ecumenical services, and have attended such services at which someone else preached. What is the objection?

It would be well for such preaching either to address a question which had something to do with the convoking of such a service, or to lay stress on the beliefs which unite Christians (the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Redemption come to mind at once). As part of a good preparation, the prospective homilist could do worse than to read C. S. Lewis.

Fr. Serge

Yes Father Serge, I once again stand corrected. I guess I equate "preaching" with something that touches on the core tenets of the faith and rouses the "Catholic guilt complex" in me, and not your everyday sermon, homily or lesson. Billy Graham can "preach" to a general Christian audience without stepping on any denominational toes.

I understand you reading into that Father. Eastern Rite is Catholic just as much as the Latin Rite is Catholic. I know this and will becareful how I promote Catholisism and Orhtodoxy. Most Catholics are not even aware of the Eastern rite that exists with in thier own religion and consider them Orthodox. You must be able to see why they are confused.

Eastern Rites do exist, but it's not people considering different rites and being ignorant of their existence, but of the existence of Eastern Churches in the Catholic Communion.

Sorry, but Cmoore's response to me contains within it part of the reason that we would do well to avoid the expression "the Eastern Rite"

Consider this example:


How's that again? It is entirely possible for a church to use an "Eastern Rite" without either having or wanting any connection at all with Rome (the monks of the Holy Mountain would be infuriated if someone tried to tell them that because they use "Eastern Rite" they must be Catholics!) For that matter, it is entirely possible for a church to use such a liturgical form without any connection with either Rome or Eastern Orthodoxy - schizophrenic, but it goes on.

Moreover, the phrase "the Eastern Rite" is thoroughly ambiguous, since there are quite a number of liturgical forms used in the Christian East - is the reference to the Chaldeans, the Ethiopians, the Syro-Malankarese, the Armenians, or something else?

The Eastern Churches in communion with Rome are not normally offended at being considered Orthodox, and in fact one can find quite a lot of liturgical diversity. By the same token, does "the Latin Rite" designate the Roman Liturgy, the Ambrosian Liturgy, the Mozarabic Liturgy, the Gallican Liturgy, one or another of the monastic Liturgies . . ? And does the "Latin Rite" cease to be so in places where the Roman Liturgy is done in Church-Slavonic, Greek, Armenian . . .?

So again, imprecise terminology does not resolve confusion; it adds to the existing confusion.

For the sake of Christ, forgive me.

Fr. Serge

In the Novus Ordo there's a lot of latitude here. An Episcopal priest who's an online friend and I talked about it once. She may read the epistle and the petitions at a Mass (like at an RC friend's wedding or funeral) but not the gospel nor preach, and of course concelebration (standing near the altar would be inappropriate) and receiving Communion are out of the question (not to do with her sex but simply being an Episcopalian).

I think services other than Mass are freer; ministers from other churches may preach.

That said I think ecumenical services, while not heretical/relativistic when done according to Rome's rules, are passé and hokey (very early 1970s), and when the liturgically liberal try to honour the Orthodox with such new, made-up services it comes off patronising.

(The mainline Protestants are all merging but nobody thinks Catholic/Protestant union will happen like some ill-informed and relativistic thought 40 years ago. The fruit of the latter ecumenism is the two sides largely don't misrepresent and badmouth each other any more, which of course is great.)

Of course 'ecumenism' is a sort of swear-word among online Orthodox, a slur certain types throw at their enemies.

Anyway...

When this issue came up on another board - an Orthodox was scandalised that Orthodox clergy went to an RC ecumenical thingy in church (they didn't break any Orthodox rules; they were in clerical garb but not vested) - I suggest the best Roman approach in church regarding relations with the Orthodox ought to mirror what the Orthodox historically did with the Anglicans. The Orthodox clergy can come in riassas, mantias and hats and happily sit in the choir stalls or sedilia in the sanctuary off to one side, not actively participating... and the Romans can have solemn Vespers with Gregorian chant, their authentic tradition and analogous to what the Orthodox do. (From the conservative Orthodox view, St John of Shanghai and San Francisco: Rome's 'venerable liturgies are older than its heresies.')

Better than a modern service with an icon here, a bit of Eastern music there in one big hash.

BTW Metropolitan Anastassy (Gribanowski) once preached at St Paul's Cathedral in London (about 60 years ago?). He was the first hierarch of ROCOR back then.

Yes, just saying 'Eastern Rite' doesn't make sense literally as it's not a description of one church or faith but in the context of this board it makes sense. In everyday Roman Catholic speech it's short for 'Eastern Rite Catholic'.

This makes sense?

I ask again: to which 'Eastern Rite' does this refer?

Fr. Serge

I'm beginning to think I like it better when Roman Catholics don't try to help us so much.

Fr Serge,

In ordinary RCspeak, all of them!

What does that mean?

What does this mean?

please remember that some may have been studying longer than others. I don't claim to know much of anything. The one thing I do know is The Lord! Why he wants me to study I have no idea but He does!