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Mike,
I have been very interested in the Third Order for years and at one time did try to join a Discalced group, but they met about two hours from my home and the two people in my town who were part of the group didn't seem very interested in helping me out. The thought of going isolate didn't appeal to me, since I knew I would need help and support as well as teaching. I think Alex's suggestion about forming a Byzantine Carmel here on the forum is a great one and I would also be very interested.

Vie

Dear Vie,
Believe me I know the frustration and disappointment you have experienced. When one feels called to a particular Order or Confraternity and the "powers that be" are totally disinterested, one might begin to wonder if they are protecting the Order or themselves.
I am very enthusiastic about the idea of a Carmel on this Forum. I have added your name to my buddy list along with Alex. Pray to our Lady for help and guidance if she wishes us to progress. Thanks for you interest.
Pray without ceasing...Mike

Dear in Christ, Mike and Vie,

I am delighted to hear of interest in Carmel! The Mother of God, and protector of Carmelites guide you!

Alex's Akathist to the the Mother of God of Mt. Carmel is very beautiful, and I have a copy on my prayer desk. It has been a big help to me too.

I understand your frustration with the authority of the Third Order and the directors of the Lay Carmel.

Don't be too disappointed. They've learned from experience that it is important to offer good formation for those who are joining the Order and confraternities, and they feel that takes place best in group meetings. Also the latest emphasis (and a good one it is too) is that Carmel is all about 'community'.

In the deserts of Palestine, of course, there is a hermit tradition, and isolation (solitude) was cherished by so many early Carmelites as they deepened their lives of prayer and entered more deeply into the spiritual warfare. But, following the advice of our father Euthymius, and holy Sabas, one only entered into deeper solitude after a period of formation in community, and then only as an 'obedience' when the superior felt that one was ready for this.

Of course, Lay Carmelites and Third Order Carmelites are not monks, and they have their marriages, families, and parishes to keep them safe. But the example of the desert monks is something to consider, and isolation and being a 'solitary tertiary' is something that we may be called to, by obedience or the circumstances of life. But it is hard to start the Carmelite spiritual journey there.

I think maybe there are alternatives to attending regular meetings (I hate meetings). Maybe even the e-mail miracle and places like this offer some possibilities? I know that my English Province of Carmel has a discussion forum (something like this one) were Lay Carmelites gather, discuss, and enter into formation of sorts. It is moderated by a friend of mine, a priest of the English Province of Carmelites (Ancient Observance.)

http://www.carmeliteforum.org/

In the mean time, I often felt that if my name is inscribed on some list in Chicago (O.Carm.), or Washington, D.C. (OCD) is not so important after all. More important is the spiritual relationship we have with the Mother of God, the patroness of Carmelites. And her guidance is always available, her welcome unfailing, and her love satisfying.

In the mean time, we 'isolated Carmelites' can pray for each other, and intercede for each other, and that too is very Carmelite.

fraternally,

Elias

You can make my mark "X" on the list for the Byzantine Carmelites !

james

Dear Father Elias,
I hope that's right. If you are the Father Elias Alex mentioned, I was wondering how to contact you. I hope you read the post Alex wrote. What are your feelings about a... cyber-Carmel on this forum? Sound strange to the ear. Would you be willing to advise on spiritual matters? Or, are you not in favor of such an undertaking?
I'm sure I don't have to say this but it's my habit I'm afraid.
Pray without ceasing...Mike

Hello to: Ladyhawke1017; Jakub; Paromer; Orthodox Catholic.
I am waiting for suggestions and/or advice from Father Elias.
Pray without ceasing...Mike

No, the Nuns are Byzantine. Their address is
R.R.1, Box 1336, Sugarloaf, PA 18249. Their chaplain is from the byzantine Franciscans in Sybersville.

Thanks for the info. I'm having enough to deal with with the Carmelites, right now.
Pray without ceasing...Mike

Dear Father Elias,
I have read and re-read you letter. I have coppied it and passed it around to some disappointed souls. Of course I defer to you, although I must admit I'm not perfectly clear on your feelings. I know about the stress on "community" but does that neccesarily mean "physical presence"? Are not all Carmelites, around the world a "community"? When I was first received (1975) there was a big emphasis on "silence and mental prayer" as apposed to todays new Rule (Ancient Observance) which wants a more "active apostolate and 15 minutes of spiritual reading". At least the Dis-calced still require 15-30 minutes of "mental prayer". Charity is above all close to God's heart and we are all called to practice it but some souls find the face of God away from the actual commumity. Any, that's my opinion and I guess I'm stuck with it.
Pray without ceasing...Mike
N.B. I apologize to one and all for my atrocious spelling. It's been years since I've had to work without a spell checker.

Dear in Christ, Mike,

I'm so sorry that I wasn't clear. As you can see, I'm afraid I'm not very good at advising others, I'm in need of some direction myself! I'm sorry.

I can't encourage you toward, or discourage you from, a cyber-Carmel forum here in this place. I only wanted to point out that there are such forums already hosted and guided by very worthy Carmelites, who have much more experience guiding others.

The new emphasis on "community" may have several things to commend it. Of course, it doesn't mean physically entering into community life! The whole point of Lay Carmel (tertiaries, third order, confraternities, or whaterer), is that its members remain 'in the world', and live something of the spirit of Carmel in their own circumstances of life. An emphasis on "community" also does not substitute for, or replace, the first place prayer (mental prayer, silent prayer, or whatever) takes in the life of every Carmelite.

I think the real emphasis on 'community' is for those who are just coming to appreciate Carmelite spiritual teaching, and who just want to speak, share, or ask questions about what they might be experiencing in prayer. So often, and I have seen this, some people start out with very good intentions to pray, and to enter into silent prayer. And then, they experience a feeling they don't understand, or are troubled by thoughts of one kind or another, and then they begin to get discouraged and out of fear or confusion, set aside prayer altogether.

The idea of "community" for Lay Carmelites, is to provide that space where there can some direction, some teaching, and some words of encouragement, especially if discouraging times arrive. Everyone (even true hermits) need that help at some time or another.

Again, I ask you to forgive us (Carmelite monks and nuns) who seem to place 'red tape' and other obstacles in the way. It was probably well meant. The community of prayer, and the spiritual link that unites all Carmelites is real and strong, and I am glad you can see that as important and enjoy that at least.

For beginners anyway, some human contact, at least occasionally, with other Carmelites has been found to be very helpful in the long run.

Again, I am sorry if I wasn't clear. It's certainly proof why I am not qualified to guide anyone.

...asking for forgiveness,

the unworthy,

Elias

Dear Father,
If anyone was at fault it was most certainly not you. Perhaps, I was trying to find in your words some hope for what I have been praying for. To be shown a way to use the experience of 30 years of Carmelite spirituality: to introduce interested souls to prayer; to seek the face of God; and to foster devotion to Our Lady of Mt. Carmel. As a Master of Formation for some years (only in the Third Order of course) I know that I was able to help a lot of souls with exactly the sort of problems you mention.
You write beautifully and I am sorry to cause you any ill feelings. I'm stumped, now.
Pray without ceasing...Mike

Dear Mike,

I think we should go ahead and develop our Carmel on the internet!

Let's discuss how this can be done further!

Alex

I must confess I am still ambivalent. The last thing I want is for some soul to be mis-directed in his or her Formation. This, of course, speaks primarily to those souls who have NO experience with Carmel or mental prayer. Father Elias mentioned other web sites that already have forums so I checked one out: "Carmelite Forum" by name. They deal with questions and problems that have DEVELOPED in community meetings. They seemed to me to creat more confusion that they erased. Once many years ago I was invited to another Community for a visit. The Master of Formation at that group actually toldmme that it was a sin to pray to Our Lady Of Mt. Carmel for help and intercession!!!
I think this Forum could be very helpful for several reasons and still be faithful to thr intent of the Byzantine Forum's rules. I know the new Rule for Lay Carmelites in the RC and all the requirements. Converting what we (lay Carmelites) do in the Western system: Liturgy of the Hours; days of fast and or abstinence; attending daily mass; spiritual reading; private prayer (Prayer of the Heart, Rosary, Chotki, Divine Mercy); devotion to Our Lady of Mt. Carmel; etc. Just as a small example: one might fast and abstain several day a week. One of those day might be a Saturday. Perhaps the Orthodox frown on fasting on Saturday. Does that preclude Orthodox from joining. Why not just pick another day instead of focusing on the DIFFERENCES of our faith. Hw do Byzantine Catholics or other Easterners feel about. What about the Liturgy of the Hours (RC term)? Again, I have read on an Orthodax site that Mary sinned when she ask Our Lord to help at the wedding in Canna. One who thought that certainly could be a member of any kind of Carmelite group. If intercession can be confused some sort of sin, then one has turned a beautiful thing into an obscene one. Not a good candidate, in my opinion.
I could go on and on but you see what I mean. I'm off to the Court House again for jury duty so I'll be back on late this afternoon if anyone cares to tell me off. God bless you all.
Pray without ceasing...Mike
N.B. The older I get the worse my typing and spelling becomes. I do not like working without a spell checker. Appologies...Mike

Dear Mike,

At this point, I wouldn't mind hearing from the Administrator on this matter!

Alex

Dear Mike, Christ is Risen!

Canon 66 of the Holy Apostles reads:
[/B]""If any of the clergy be found fasting on the Lord's Day, or on the Sabbath, excepting the one only, let him be deposed. If a layman, let him be excommunicated" "[/B]
cf. Canon 55 of the Sixth Ecumenical Synod and Canon 18 of the Synod of Gangra.

This part of the Canon Law (to impose an approximately equivalent Latin term) of the Orthodox Church. It's disregard by the Latins was one of the six reasons that my own patron saint excommunicated Pope Nicholas I.

So, "frown" is a gross understatement!


In the Byzantine tradition (as was once true in the Latin Church), every Wednesday and Friday is a day of fast; monks fast, additionally, on Mondays. That said, nowadays, most people in the world on Wednesdays and Fridays that are outside of the four lents, usually just abstain (from meat, fish, dairy products, eggs, wine, and oil) and do not usually "fast" in the Latin usage of the term.

Also, I am told, that Byzantine Catholics no longer fast; if that's true, then the above only applies to Orthodox Christians. I would appreciate some Catholic confirming or contradicting this.

As for daily Mass, there are a number of days in the year that are aliturgical; that aside, there are only a handful of Orthodox Churches in North America that have the Holy Liturgy every day it is permitted. Parish priests, being married, can not serve the Holy Liturgy daily. Personally, I have never met a priest that serves the Holy Liturgy daily; those places that have daily Liturgy has a staff of many priests who rotate.


What?!?! That is heresy ... The Most Holy Theotokos was without sin! Something is amiss at that website.


I try to compose these messages in an environment with a spell checker (as I'm doing now), and then cut and paste the proofed text to the Forum's message window. Sometimes I don't, and those times are obvious.

Photius, Reader