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My priest friend was not referring to the Church watering down the reality of life as a priest. His comment was in reference to watering down the truths of the faith that are taught to young people. His point was that if we teach the truths of the Christian faith, particularly the supernatural realities, without compromise and with great love, men would be clamoring to the priesthood, celibacy or not. Before he entered the seminary, he taught for several years at a Catholic High School and was appalled at what passed for religion classes there.

Elizabeth

JAMES:

Christ is in our midst!!

That's rather generous, given the current economic climate. It's even very well placed when compared to entry level compensation in the private and business sectors.

I never made much more than half that for the number of hours I worked and I still was able to support my family without my wife working outside the home.

So it's not the money that's the issue. It is, as with so much else, a spiritual problem.

BOB

agreed--but in our rite call to orders is a vocation not a career--financial compensation is not the benchmark of success nor the driving stimulis for consideration to orders--a large percentage of deacons serve withot parish or diocesean compensation--at all--we know this going into orders and realize permanent latin rite deacons are responsible financially for their own family support including medical, education, etc--we do not look at it as being unfair but rather like celebacy it is freely accepted--we minister w/o any consideration of compensation--and I speak only for our Diocese--even with that when a new class of deacons are called
a recognizable qualified number are turned away simply because the class can only handle so many. We now have two classes in formation ordination for 2011 and 2013 it is a four year academic twelve month program with less than four in both classes dropping out--priestly ordination average 3 per yr. why --it must be the moving of the Holy Spirit or as some say "go figure" by the way--the single men in the deaconate program to a man-embrace the idea of celebacy after ordination living the single live with its challenges and lonlines
As paul says to the world Christ crucified is foolishness
to those who believe a path to salvation. God Bless

agreed--I too never reached that number but the figures factored in the costs of avg family in todays market with education expenses, inflation etc and the priest would have to have advance degrees in psy, theology ministry ,etc we are talking income and expenses of a growing family--In addition and I am playing devil's advocate would not those priests who elected celebacy feel brused--is their ministry less value than married clergy would they not be entitled to addtional compensation if salary benchmarks be used as in the case of married clergy--even to the point to get married even if called to celebacy?? Where does it stop?? Its like a breeder reactor--it keeps expanding just looking at it. we cannot judge vocations in the light of careers. that s why it is a gift from God given to those he chooses.. God bless.

ok--our only reach to young people at this time to teach truths and doctrine is one of only two paths--catholic high school or CCD one night a week--In my experience also teaching the cost of high school is out of line for most families--CCD ends up usually on one evening a week--the students are tired, mad because their parents brought them here when they can be playing video games or hanging with friends at the mall-religious ed is not important after confirmaion its not important to parents why should it be to them--in public school
if rel is mentioned, the children could be sanctioned or labled a trouble maker and the schools get them three times as long each and every day--Please in all due respect have your priest friend E_Mail me and perhaps he can recommend not what the church fails to do but suggestions on what we can do I would gladly share and implement the suggestions with both parish and diocese ed dept--Tx for the reply-God Bless.

well put--agree with you as well stated--Christ said my grace is sufficient-for you. he never said his ministry is easy/ celebacy can be looked at as both a blessing and a cross. i am not trying to broadbrush but this is a personal choice between God and his chosen and the holy Spirit at least in the latin rite sems to be saying, and i do not speak for Him" that you cannot have it both ways--a jealous God who demands fully from His priests..."My kingdom is not of this world." But He binds his priests to the law of celebacy in the latin rite out of His kingdom" It is accept it if you can or more so if you are willing I will be there my grace is sufficient. God Bless'

"agreed--but in our rite call to orders is a vocation not a career--financial compensation is not the benchmark of success nor the driving stimulis for consideration to orders"

On the other hand, Catholic social doctrines speak of a "living wage", and, unless we expect the priest's wife to live outside the home, and do not expect their children to go to college, or for him to put aside sufficient money for retirement, or to pay for health insurance, life insurance, etc., something more than a $15,000 per year stipend plus tips is in order.

The OCA, I believe, has guidelines for what to pay a married priest. I think it is somewhere on the order of $60,000 per year, which, depending on where you live, is either nicely middle class, or barely getting by. Either way, it seems doable, provided (a) everybody in the parish is expected to contribute according to his means (is there really anybody, anywhere, who cannot put aside ten or twenty bucks a week?).

As for the expenses of Latin parishes, my own observation is they have far too many people on payroll in various "ministries" that, in Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox parishes are fulfilled by volunteers. In most Eastern parishes, the pastor is the only paid, full-time employee. There may be a part-time office manager and custodian, but everything else is done by volunteers, and a lot of sweat equity goes into the maintenance of the physical plant, too.

"In addition and I am playing devil's advocate would not those priests who elected celebacy feel brused--is their ministry less value than married clergy would they not be entitled to addtional compensation if salary benchmarks be used as in the case of married clergy--even to the point to get married even if called to celebacy??"

This is true silliness, yet the argument has been used by some as an excuse not to ordain married men. Look at the Churches in which the married priesthood was never suspended: there are married parish priests, and then there are celibate monastic priests. The monastic priests live according to the rules of their order, in monastic communities, which usually accept poverty as part of their rule. I have never heard a celibate Orthodox priest complain that his married counterparts are making too much money. It would be a stupid argument, just looking at the manner in which those married priests and their families live.

In this country, there are more married priests in the Latin Church (upwards of 100) than there are in all the Byzantine/Greek Catholic jurisdictions. I haven't heard a great upsurge of envy from celibate Latin priests about their compensation, nor, for that matter, has there been any great scandal on the part of the people--quite the contrary: married Latin priests have extremely popular since they were allowed to become parish pastors, particularly among young couples raising families.

Good discussion so far!

Perhaps there is a married priest on this forum or someone with some knowledge of this issue that can assist me.

I reconciled to Catholicism from Protestantism last fall, entering into full communion with the Church via the Ruthenian Catholic Church. Even before reconciling, I was sensing a possible call to the ministry, and that sense has grown only stronger since I became Catholic. Growing up in this society and as a Protestant, I always assumed that I would get married and have a family. Lately, in starting to discern the call to the priesthood, I've realized that I also need to discern whether I have a call to marriage as well. When I talk to Roman Catholics and RC priests, I tend to internally feel guilty/unseasy that I am attrated to the idea of being both a priest and married man. I know celibacy is a gift and celibate priests have a very special calling but I am not sure that that is what I want for my life or what I am called to.

I decided on Pentecost Sunday that if I am called to be a priest I will apply to seminary and begin my studies, and if I am also called to marriage then I have faith that God will open up doors in that area and bring a woman into my life before I make my vows and am ordained. I also expect God to enable my Ruthenian bishop to accept this (part of my original post was motivated by the potentiality of this coming up a few years down the road), though to date it seems that the Ruthenians have not yet ordained a married American, either from resistance to the idea or from the non-occurence of this particular circumstance since PJP2 requested the eastern Catholic churches in the US to de-latinize.

Is this reasonable? Is this how eastern european catholic men who enter seminary may go about this process? Is this how orthodox men who become married and later become priests also go about this process? Is it normal for young (Orthodox and eastern Catholic) men in their 20's to enter seminary and then date and marry sometime during their seminary studies? Besides prayer and having a spiritual director, are there any books or resources or contacts that anyone knows of that would be useful for someone who is discerning both a call to marriage AND the Catholic priesthood?
I hope this was clear.
Theodore

Theodore,

One day I was having a casual conversation with Vladyka John of Parma, I asked him much the same questions. Here is what he basically said to me, our official policy is enter the seminary, begin your studies, if you still feel a strong call to both talk to your bishop. Something didn't seem to add up to me, but we were also in close proximity to the other Hierarchs.

I am also struggling with vocations. I routinely talk to people about my call to the priesthood, but that it must be alongside my call to married life. I have discerned that I am not called to the celibate priesthood which is evidenced by the fact that I am getting married in January. I have had many conversations with spiritual directors and Archieparchial staff about my call to the priesthood and their response was genearlly to wait and see.

Peace,
Ed

A married priesthood might not be "the" solution (as many Latin articles often point out), but it is a solution to the priesthood crisis. 4 parishes/missions in my protopresbytery with one priest and one deacon is not a workable situation. Here's a good post on clerical celibacy:

http://www.orthocuban.com/2009/06/on-celibate-priests/

Christ is in our midst!!

It seems to me that the linkng of compensation to marital status is blatantly against any concept of justice that anyone could come up with. A priest should be compensated for his work, just like anyone else. If he is celibate or if he is married, there should be no discrimination. Both need to build up Social Security quarters and a retirement based on their compensation, so there should be no artificial reduction just because a man does not have to support a family.

BOB

"It seems to me that the linkng of compensation to marital status is blatantly against any concept of justice that anyone could come up with. "

Now you stand in direct opposition to long-established Catholic social justice teaching. The ideal to be upheld is a family being sustained by the wages of one spouse--nominally the father--so that the other spouse--nominally the mother-- may devote full time to the raising of children and management of the household.

This, of course, runs contrary to the ideals of civil law, which are based on the concept of equal pay for equal work, but why, pray tell, must the Church in its own internal affairs conform to the civil law?

"Both need to build up Social Security quarters and a retirement based on their compensation, so there should be no artificial reduction just because a man does not have to support a family."

Anyone under sixty contemplating collecting social security is delusional, but aside from that, a single person with no dependents only has to provide for himself. A married man must also make provisions for his wife. A father must make provisions for his children. Families are expensive. If you don't think so, you haven't had one, yet.

Well said. If we value something we make efforts to foster its well-being and growth. If we apply a single provision to everyone's situation and call anything that might get in the way of that enterprise a "choice" (family, children, carrying for elderly parents, etc.) we are making an implicit argument that the primary good is the job and anything that makes that job more difficult or requires additional resources is either peripheral or undesirable.

Theodore,

My journey is far too complex to explain in detail here, but suffice it to say that at the time I entered Seminary some 27 1/2 years ago, I was aware of the Eastern practices of allowing Marriage only prior to Ordination. Even though I was Protestant I believed that the clock was ticking.

During my first year of Seminary I met the young lady who became my wife. We were married about six months prior to my Ordination to the Diaconate. I continue to believe in the "once and only once" concept of married clergy.

It is a great scandal that in many Protestant communities divorced and remarried clergy have become so commonplace that in some instances "being on your first marriage" is regarded as a sign of immaturity. Yes! Some communities think that a Pastor who has gone through the trauma of a divorce and remarried is somehow better able to "meet their needs."