www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Ruthenian Fast: from Vespers or 24 hour day?

I have probably asked this question before and in several places and seem to get different answers. When there is an individual day of fasting to begin or keep, is the individual free to keep the fast from Vespers the evening before (around 6 o clock or dinner time or sundown?) to Vespers the evening after, or is it to be kept as a 24 hour calendar day? Granted, I know that it would be more understood as from rising to going to sleep than just because of the clock.

I think from my asking around the answer I seem to have arrived at is - either. But in our Church bulletin it clearly writes to start fast on Sunday evening. Is this then, just for the first day, or all days?

I have gotten different answers from people in the diaconate program and from a Priest. I have also heard differing answers from different Orthodox Christians. I am really only looking for an answer from the Ruthenian Rite if their is truly an official way or if it is up to the discretion of the believer done prayerfully and with help form spiritual director I suppose.

My pastor cited the instructions for the Apostle's fast for this year include starting sunday evening, and minimum observance having been dropped to no meat on fridays.

You're not going to find an answer that is official and comprehensive. During the Great Fast the Lenten day runs effectively from the time you arise until the time you go to sleep while and runs concurrently with the saint of the day which continues to run from sunset to sunset.

The Peter & Paul Fast began at sundown on Sunday night. Technically that would be when you begin fasting. Since this fast is just starting off the first day is a bit longer, as most people will fast from sunset until they go to sleep and then fast from then on from the point when they awake until they go to sleep. The tradition is to keep a strict fast on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays and a lesser fast on Tuesdays and Thursdays (meaning wine and oil can be consumed). How you count the hours of the day is rather flexible after the first evening. The point is that you be consistent.

Right now, Peter & Paul Fast is entirely voluntarily (except for not eating meat on Fridays). I recommend using your judgment. Pick something and stick with it.

I personally do not keep Peter & Paul Fast to the strictness of the Typicon. I will abstain from meat on Wednesdays & Fridays. I usually give something up or identify a specific act of charity. And, as an extra, I keep a strict fast on the Vigils of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist (my name saint) and Saints Peter & Paul.

But the key is consistency.

Gee, what of those of us who normally fast on Wednesdays and Fridays? Of course, I was at someone's ordination reception, which occurred during the Apostles Fast a few years ago, and everyone blithely ate chicken, including the bishop, with the exception of Father John Petro. So it is hard to demand of the laity what you do not demand of yourself.

It was precisely that kind of attitude that caused my Sicilian great grandfather to hate the Church and absolutely loathe priests.

What is the greater sin, to skip the fast or refuse hospitality?

Thank you for your reply. So, then, even if Friday is the only day one were strictly following, then that would be the 24 hour period known as Friday, or Vesper's on Thursday evening to Vespers on Friday. Not only for the fast but for all Fridays I suppose? I feel like you are saying, as long as we keep it consistently it is up to our discretion?

Also, while traditionally strict fast would not have allowed wine or oil, from what I know it seems not all people Orthodox or BC actually avoid oil these days even on strict fast days, and consider strict fast to just mean no meat or dairy, as almost everything in cooked or prepared in oil these days. Though I am sure many people actually do include this discipline. I just did not know to what extent it is expected or specifically required to avoid oil.

"What is the greater sin, to skip the fast or refuse hospitality?"

Refuse hospitality. But we would not say skipping the fast under such circumstances is a sin. Nor would it be a sin if one violated the fast out of forgetfulness, or even out of human weakness; those would be transgressions. It would be sinful to refuse to fast out of willfulness, or to deny the usefulness of fasting in general.

My pastor's predecessors all said Vespers or bedtime. He has himself implied it, since the fast "begins at vespers sunday", and is listed by date as starting monday.

Yes, I am saying that you have choices to make. At this point in the life of the Church the Peter & Paul Fast is voluntarily. You can be stricter and start your Friday after Vespers on Thursday evening. Or you can be less strict and start your Friday upon arising on Friday morning. For someone who is new to this I’d recommend starting this year with the easier route (Fri morning) and keeping it. That would be better then keeping the stricter route for the first week and then lapsing altogether.

The approach I’m suggesting here is to start this year with something that is more then just not eating meat on Fridays but less then the full strict Fast. A challenge, but not one that is overly difficult to keep. Fasting is about developing self-discipline. So it’s good to learn to walk a mile before going on the 40 mile hike.

Yes, many (if not most) Slavs do not abstain from wine and oil (I have a friend who considers beer to be liquid bread!). For some a strict fast means also giving up fish with a backbone, but Slavs usually don’t give up such fish. Use your discretion.

Technically, one can keep the letter of the law of the Fast and pig out at Long John Silver’s. But that would violate the spirit of the Fast. So judgment and prayer are necessary.

John ,

an interesting statement

I have always been instructed that fish is not permitted.

Indeed - my pastors have always indicated that during fasts, the tradition allows fish only on certain days (usually weekends, or feast days in the fast, depending on which fasting period is under consideration).

Jeff Mierzejewski

Angela,

There is the tradition and there is how it is kept. Technically one would not be expected to eat fish with a backbone yet there is often a cultural compromise. When I was growing up Fridays meant "fish sticks & pirohi" at the school cafeteria. Fish sticks are usually haddock or cod (or the like) and were deemed acceptable by both Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics. Pirohi were always swimming in margarine and onions. Others can surely condemn the lack of rigorousness. But growing up in northeast Pennsylvania it was the way pretty much every Slav (BC and Orthodox) kept the Great Fast. [The high school I attended catered to Eastern Christians in diet (at the cafeteria) and in days off (January 7th for Christmas and Good Friday and Bright Monday on both calendars).]

Then there is the whole lobster question. One can technically eat shellfish but not fish with a backbone. Given the price of lobster and some other shellfish as compared to a piece of haddock I can understand why many people chose the haddock!

John

I was under he impression that if one started on Thursday Vespers they would consider the fast day to be over on Friday Vespers and therefore be able to break fast or lessen it on Friday evening after Vespers. But from your referring to "more strict" I feel you are implying that those who start Thursday night are being more strict because they start Thursday night and then go all of Friday as well. I have never heard of this except for what you have told more about beginning the fast Sunday evening and keeping it till Tuesday. In what sense did you mean it was more strict to begin on Thursday evening?

This is actually my second to third year of keeping the fasts. So I am not too worried about getting discouraged or anything as I have some idea of things. I am just trying to get some sort of definitive idea of what is required. It seems that we rely more on tradition, but that this varies a bit from place to place. I like that it is less technical and more up to the discretion of the situation, and simply more about keeping the fast in some way.

But as a former Latin Rite, I miss the transparency of what was required and ability to clearly see and know it via canon law or websites etc. that were consistent as I believe it is helpful to know exactly what is expected, and then to also keep it in a spiritual but not technical or legalistic way. I guess I am saying, it would be nice to have a clear picture of what the fast was, and to keep it well.

“More strict” is relative. We are speaking of what is now a voluntarily fast.

If you begin your Fast at Vespers on Thursday you can certainly end it at Vespers on Friday. Or continue it to bedtime. Your choice. There is no right or wrong answer here. Such legalism is not Eastern. The East would ask for consistency. Starting earlier (at Vespers on Thursday) and continuing until bedtime Friday night simply means you embrace a Fast that is more rigorous since you are lengthening the time you keep it.

The East tends to not over legislate things. It provides the general guidelines for fasting and expects the faithful to embrace it to the best of their ability, with expectations that they will tailor those guidelines for individual needs. A diabetic, for example, would have to adapt it after consultation with both his spiritual director and medical doctor. He could certainly fast from meat and dairy but the severity of his diabetes could mean he might have a very different diet then a non-diabetic. A family with 3 kids under 5 will have to determine how they eat during the Fast with regard to both the fasting guidelines and their household budget.

In the East the Fast is qualitative, not quantitative. A construction worker or a farmer would have different food needs then an office worker. This is not unlike the traditional requirement to fast from midnight before receiving the Eucharist. You just do it. But if your doctor tells you that you need to take a medication as soon as you awake with food then you take it with food and can still take Eucharist (so long as you understand the difference between taking the medication with (for example) some dry toast and stopping at an all you can eat breakfast drive through on the way to Liturgy!).

The Rubrics for Van Nuys as passed on by Rev. Fr. Mike were "A minimum of simple abstinence from meat on Fridays of Apostle's Fast."

Tradition in the Eparchy is Wednesdays and Fridays. (Somewhere I've got the bulletins to prove it.)

More strict abstinence from meat is encouraged.

Simple abstinence from meat is taught as abstaining from land dwelling creatures of all kinds.