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The first is purely bovine fecal matter. Whenever someone starts with Adrian Fortescue and works his way down, you know there is a problem. The latter is a ditto-head of the former. Neither has the slightest clue as to what Rome currently teaches with regard to the Procession of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise they would have cited The Father as the Source of the Who...Spirit in the Greek and Latin Traditions [ web.archive.org] by the Pontifical Commission for Promoting Christian Unity. Regarding the insertion of the Filioque by the Greek Catholics, this was never mandated by Rome, but rather a self-inflicted injury done in a spate of self-loathing me-tooism by the various Greek Catholic "rites" wanting to be "real Catholics".
Last edited by StuartK; 06/15/09 05:30 AM.
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The "Clarification" referenced above also contains this succinct statement of what the Catholic Church teaches:
"The Catholic Church acknowledges the conciliar, ecumenical, normative, and irrevocable value, as expression of the one common faith of the Church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council. No profession of faith peculiar to a particular liturgical tradition can contradict this expression of the faith taught by the undivided Church."
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Za myr z'wysot ... Member
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Regarding the insertion of the Filioque by the Greek Catholics, this was never mandated by Rome, but rather a self-inflicted injury done in a spate of self-loathing me-tooism by the various Greek Catholic "rites" wanting to be "real Catholics". Stuart, In fairness, the ECCs have historically faced a lot of pressure to show some conformity to RC practice as an outward sign of their claimed communion, and adding the Filioque was one of the easiest concessions they could make. Let us not forget that it is hard to maintain a communion that is de facto as well as de jure when there is such a difference in ritual practice, especially since the rite of the ECs so closely resembles that of the "schismatic" EOs. (And let us also not forget that before V-II, practically no one in the RCC would have been so bold as to suggest that the EOs were anything but schismatic.) So, while I agree completely that de-latinization is a good thing and that its time has come, I will not go so far as to say that they never had any valid purpose. Rome may have known the terms by which the various unia were enacted, but most RC bishops did not--surely we are not suggesting here that Rome should have exercised more control over her bishops!  Peace, Deacon Richard
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"In fairness, the ECCs have historically faced a lot of pressure to show some conformity to RC practice as an outward sign of their claimed communion, and adding the Filioque was one of the easiest concessions they could make."
True, but they were not asked to do that--the Synod of Zamosc did not involve the Latin Church, and was nothing except a series of self-inflicted wounds by an insecure and to some extent self-loathing Church.
"Let us not forget that it is hard to maintain a communion that is de facto as well as de jure when there is such a difference in ritual practice, especially since the rite of the ECs so closely resembles that of the "schismatic" EOs."
That's the Orthodox argument against "Uniatism", but in fact there were always Byzantine rite churches under Roman jurisdiction, in southern Italy, so what is their excuse?
" I will not go so far as to say that they never had any valid purpose. "
I'll say it then: It never had any valid purpose, other than to promote the gradual assimilation of the "Orientals" into the Latin Church--which, as the term "Praestantia ritus latini" suggests, was really viewed as normative for all Christians. The whole purpose of "Uniatism" was first to bring as many "dissident Orientals" under Roman jurisdiction, and then to wean them from their primitive tribal customs. Let's not pretend there was every any other purpose in mind--at least not on the Latin side.
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Fortunately, Popes Pius IX, X, XI, XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, and John Paul II kept nudging the church away from the absorption model and to a more Unity in Diversity model.
A nudge here, and order there...
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Za myr z'wysot ... Member
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I will not go so far as to say that they never had any valid purpose. I'll say it then: It never had any valid purpose, other than to promote the gradual assimilation of the "Orientals" into the Latin Church ... That's quite a judgment to go making against the bishops who were responsible for these decisions--I seriously doubt their intention was to be assimilated, and I'm sure they knew more about the situation than you give them credit for. Furthermore, I don't think the real danger was assimilation, but rejection (or, more accurately, "total" rejection--since the ECCs were just barely accepted as it was). The whole purpose of "Uniatism" was first to bring as many "dissident Orientals" under Roman jurisdiction, and then to wean them from their primitive tribal customs. Let's not pretend there was ever any other purpose in mind--at least not on the Latin side. Granted, there were many in the West who saw it this way. However, if the RCC as a block was really as evil as you are portraying them, then you have to answer two obvious questions: - Why bother to seek unity with them at all?
- What brought about the apparent change of heart at V-II?
Indeed, the degree of suspicion you show in these statements reveals the same kind of un-charity that led to these divisions in the first place. Please reconsider your statements. Peace, Deacon Richard
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Three paragraphs from that Paschal Letter jumped out at me What is going on? In the opinion of some of our members, our parishes exist only in order to remain precisely as they recall it from their childhood, and then die as the powerful process of cultural assimilation grinds all immigrants into the same homogenized American powder. What is the use of trying to hold on to our parishes when all around us there are larger, better organized, and vastly better financed Roman Catholic parishes that we could belong to? Is it somehow preordained that only the Latin rite should have a permanent home on these western shores (though even our Roman Catholic sisters and brothers are having a difficult go of it in an environment with fewer and fewer priests)?
Although I can scarcely speak from my own experience regarding what happens in Romania, it has occurred to me, too, that many whose families had been Greek-Catholic prior to past and present political attempts to eliminate the Greek-Catholic Church from national life in Romania may have likewise found it too hard to swim against the cultural tide. Perhaps they have simply chosen to remain where history and political repression have put them. It is just easier to be Orthodox where Orthodoxy is big and powerful, and Roman Catholic or Protestant (or Evangelical) where western Christianity commands the privileges of a majority.
(In both these situations, of course, I am referring to those who exercise religious 'preferences' as a path of least resistance in their worlds, not to those who have chosen where they belong out of conviction and an experience of truth. Far be it from me to judge the mystery of another's life. I am sure that some of our people who have found a spiritual home elsewhere have done so in response to a spiritual hunger they have not been able to satisfy in our parishes, for whatever reason. I have often said that there are two reasons that people leave our communities: either because they don't love God or because they do.) There is a huge amount here that we should think about , and then act upon .
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