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Russian Church Snubs Vatican Envoy

Wed Feb 13, 3:06 PM ET
By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV, Associated Press Writer

MOSCOW (AP) - In a growing rift with the Vatican, the Russian Orthodox
Church has told a top papal envoy who was to visit this month that he is no
longer welcome, pointing at the pope's "unfriendly" decision to set up
Roman Catholic dioceses in Russia.

The Orthodox Church's chief of foreign relations, Metropolitan Kirill,
told Cardinal Walter Kasper in a letter that his visit to Russia would be
"impossible" at the current time, Orthodox Church spokesman Igor Vyzhanov
said Wednesday.

Kirill spoke two days after the Vatican announced its decision to elevate
the status of its four "apostolic administrations" in Russia into
full-fledged dioceses, a change the Russian church called part of an effort
by the Roman Catholic Church to expand its influence and seek converts. The
Vatican said it was merely meant to improve pastoral services for Catholics
in Russia.

Pope John Paul II has made the improvement of relations with Orthodox
Christians after a millennium of division a goal of his papacy, and wants
to visit Russia. The Russian Orthodox Church says that cannot happen until
relations improve '�� something it says can only occur if the Roman
Catholic Church stops its alleged proselytizing in Russia.

Kirill told The Associated Press Television News a meeting between Alexy
and John Paul would be "unlikely" until the churches, divided since the
Great Schism of 1054, solve their fundamental differences.

In a statement released Tuesday, Russian Orthodox Church Patriarch Alexy
II said the decision to create dioceses aggravated the church conflict.
"The Vatican's action has jeopardized the ability of the Catholic West and
the Orthodox East to cooperate as two great civilizations for the benefit
of Europe and the entire world," he said.

A Russian newspaper said the Vatican decision indicated that it has lost
hope of settling the dispute through dialogue and has decided to go its own
way without worrying so much about opposition from the Russian church. "The
Vatican's move has signaled an end to its policy of appeasement toward the
Russian Orthodox Church," the liberal daily Novye Izvestia said in an
editorial.

The Roman Catholic Church says there are about 600,000 Catholics in
Russia today, while there were an estimated 800,000 on the territory of
modern-day Russia before the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution. Catholics have
pushed for the return of church property that was confiscated during the
Soviet era.

The Russian Orthodox Church does not release figures on its followers,
but Britain's Keston Institute estimates that about two-thirds of Russia's
144 million people consider themselves Orthodox Christians.

I am not sure I like orthodoxy called a 'civilization'

axios

Dear Brendan,

It's not a good situation all around and I don't blame the Russian Orthodox one bit.

Alex

I agree that the situation is not good, and I understand the Russian Orthodox point of view, but I think they are being a bit irrational. They are only able to see one side of the story -- their own.

Daniil

Personally, I don't like to think about the politics involved in all of this. I feel it is for the Bishops of the church to worry about such things as diocese and eparchies. During this time of the Great Fast, I hope we can all remember the importance of theosis and not allow political rangling to interfere. After all, no matter who calls Great Russia or any other country part of their "territory" is inconsequential. Their are no borders in God's eyes, only souls. Just my thoughts..

Dmitri

Dear Daniil and Dmitri,

You are both God's precious gifts to us, you know.

May the Lord bless you always!

Alex

I am sure that Moscow feels the same about the Roman perspective.
So, for now, it's a wash.

But Rome's decision will also, in my opinion, have a negative influence upon the Bulgarians, Serbs and, especially, the Romanians, who are already locked in a battle over church properties with Catholic Romanians. The Serbs certainly cannot forget that the Russians, as well as the Greeks, were probably the only European countries that showed any sympathy for their cause during the recent Balkan wars. The Bulgarians have very long and clear memories; they will never forget that the Russians sacrificed thousands of lives to free Bulgaria from Turkish bondage. The Bulgarians are not ingrates and they are on shaky ground with the West at this time because of their dire economic conditions, which they partially blame on the West. We will see.

Catholics have a tendency to exaggerate the divisions within Orthodoxy, especially American Catholics, because their knowledge of Orthodox history is rather wanting in depth and content.

I think you will see a ground swell of support for the Russians coming from the Orthodox communities.

I am really interested in Antioch's view on this issue.

Hopefully, this issue with live out its "15 minutes of infamy" and vanish from the screen.

On the other hand, will this be the straw that broke the camel's back?

Will this event be the first falling domino to deliver the death blow to Catholic-Orthodox ecumenical dialog?

It seems that dialog is once again on shaky ground.

ER

Dear Ephraim,

One thing that Rome has over everyone though is its consummate political skills.

I don't pretend to know what its' up to, but it's up to something.

Consider this pronouncement of mine to be, well, infallible . . .

Alex

Friend Alex,

You make a good point.

But you can't blame me for wondering if their reasoning is based on paradoxical logic: A = non-A.

I have to tell you, from the perspective of one who is Byzantine spiritually, but neither Catholic or Orthodox ecclesiastically, I find this boxing match fascinating. (Yes, I know it is not charitable to gloat on the failures of the Catholic and Orthodox churches.)

But, speaking as an observer from the Christian anarchist wing of the ancient Byzantine ethos, this isue is really.....something. (In this case "something" can be used as a word pregnant with many meanings.)

I believe God gave birth to the third way so sensitive types could find a spiritual home outside of Catholic and Orthodox ecclesiology and avoid the destructive consequences of these turf wars.

I am sure that there are many Orthodox, and even Catholics, in Russia who might themselves be looking for a spiritual refuge among the Christians of the third way.

I certainly sympathize with them.

They have grown weary of the hate and hostility that Catholicism and Orthodoxy seem to engenger within the hearts of their communicants.

Why settle for bronze or silver when God offers you gold?

Bon Voyage,

Ephraim

[ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: Ephraim Reynolds ]

What I fail to understand is this:

If there was a reason for "Apostolic Administrations" in the past, why are those reasons suddenly no longer in place?

What is this great need to establish dioceses when the former arrangement fulfilled the same purpose?

I love Our Holy Father in Rome.

But, I fear that this is a mistake. :rolleyes:

Brother Ephraim makes a very good point. Too often, the administrative structures (and political machinations) overwhelm what should be a loving and service oriented community.

Perhaps as an American who has grown up in a pluralistic society, I become uncomfortable about the 'territory' thing. Traditionally 'Orthodox' areas are to be off limits to 'Catholic' communities except in caring for the Catholic foreigners who are there. Ceteris paribus, 'Catholic" areas should be off limits to 'Orthodox' communities, except for caring for the Orthodox foreigners who are there. But it is clear that both communities are not living up to this principle.

What really bothers me is the fact that some have considered the Americas "barbarian territory", and not subject to the supposedly 'canonical' principle that whoever is there 'first', has jurisdiction. In this case, the Westerns were in America first, and as such, should have jurisdiction, and the 'Orthodox' should back off. Yet, despite the rejection of the principle in 'Orthodox'/'Catholic' relationships, the principle is still applied in 'Orthodoxy' when granting hegemony to the Russian Church over the Greeks, despite the overwhelming magnititude of the Greek presence.

In terms of theology, either one applies theological principles or one does not. But one should not succumb to the 'situational ethics' that has characterized these (mostly political) machinations of the Churches.

I think the best is to use the American (pluralistic) model, since it allows each church community to do its best to spread the Gospel (one would hope!) and to gain adherents. But if one goes with the old style "my territory"/"your territory" idea, then Greek Orthodoxy in Italy, France, Germany and England can only accept ethnic Greeks as adherents, and the rest have got to be dismissed. Same for the Russian dioceses in Germany and France: Russians only; everybody else, go away.

As for America, if the principle of "first here" should apply, then the Western Church is clearly the "first here". And, the only folks who should be in Orthodox Churches should be the ethnics of the specific ethnoi. And the non-ethnics should not be accepted and be dismissed to the Western Church. And I'm sure that that would not be acceptable to Orthodoxy in America.

Blessings!

Dave,

I think the answer to you question is because they should never have been "Apostolic Administrations" in the first place. If in a given location there is a bishop and a group of faithful you have a eparchy/diocese. If the group is extremely small or in the initial stages of organizing you have an apostolic exarchate/vicarate. To call them anything else is playing semantic games.

The entity of apostolic administration was created for political motives and is basically a non-entity. Since Vatican II, the Church has recognized that the eparchy/diocese is the primary an essential realization of the local Church. These inturn are organized into metropolitanates or patriarchates. Extraneous jurisdictions like territorial abbeys (except for a handful of historically important abbeys) and prelatures, and apostolic administrations have consisently been eliminated. Diocese that were previously exempt from the oversight of Metropolitans have been incorporated into provinces. There is nothing provocative about the Vatican's actions as it is consistently doing the same everywhere.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Dear Brother Ephraim,

I find your point on the "third way" to be of utmost fascination!

I myself have been thinking along those same lines - not that I've come up with anything concrete, largely speculation with some discussion with people who have actually formed themselves into such communities as you suggest.

Anything further along this vein I would only be willing to discuss with you privately, as I know you would appreciate.

There is no doubt that Rome knows exactly "What it is doing" from a geopolitical vantage point.

The Eastern Catholic Churches, if you will, are the direct result of Rome's historic geopolitical manouevering, even though it is affirmed today that that "ecumenical" policy was a failed one.

It is no use to blame Russia for not being pluralistic or otherwise like North America in protesting this move.

Most of the world is not like North America and it won't be. The mistake of much U.S. foreign policy is rooted in this precise notion that the world must somehow adapt to the U.S. political culture or else!

Rome knew what the reaction would be and went ahead anyway.

Off hand, I would predict that this is a way to pressure the Orthodox Church into ecumenical talks with Rome. There is a wing within Russian Orthodoxy, small but strong, that wants union with Rome, the contemporary "Latinophrones" that were previously among the Greeks at the Council of Florence. This wing is even represented among the Russian Orthodox episcopate.

The fact of the matter is that most countries of the world have a dominant religion, including the western Catholic European communities and Poland itself, as we well know.

Russia is not somehow "unique" in this respect even though the media focus on this situation seems to be suggesting that Russia is "stodgy" in having a state religion and undemocratic.

The fact is that Rome's ecumenical project with Western Protestant Christians has run into the sand, Novus Ordo or no. Even its hopes of Anglican and Lutheran Rites embracing these Christians around the world and within the pale of Roman Catholicism is "out the window."

Rome's only real and pragmatic objective is to now go after the Orthodox. Rome feels its power in Eastern Europe among the unchurched peoples there for whom Orthodoxy may or may not be a familiar home. It is flexing its muscles to get the Russians to the ecumenical bargaining table.

Frankly, I think the Russian Church will come to it, it is only a matter of time, and, ultimately, this, and not the Unia, will be Rome's victory in the ecumenical field.

I don't like it any more than you, for different reasons because I myself feel my Church historically "used" by you know who, only to be shunted aside now.

Rome was and is a political force to be reckoned with.

Alex

"There is no doubt that Rome knows exactly "What it is doing" from a geopolitical vantage point."

Of course, this is absolutely correct, in my opinion. Noone ever accuses the Vatican of being "stupid". We may disagree with what they do, but they are not at all daft.

"Rome knew what the reaction would be and went ahead anyway."

I think that much will depend on what happens in the next few months. I think Rome has gambled that a negative reaction (which must have been expected) will be a short-term phenomenon without broader or longer implications. It will be interesting to see if the Vatican wins that bet.

"Off hand, I would predict that this is a way to pressure the Orthodox Church into ecumenical talks with Rome. There is a wing within Russian Orthodoxy, small but strong, that wants union with Rome, the contemporary "Latinophrones" that were previously among the Greeks at the Council of Florence. This wing is even represented among the Russian Orthodox episcopate."

Yup, that's true. It seems puzzling to me, however, that this kind of move could be seen as something that would lend support to the "Latinophrones" -- if anything, it seems like it will undermine them. Again, I think much depends on how significant the impact of this event is in terms of breadth and duration.

"The fact of the matter is that most countries of the world have a dominant religion, including the western Catholic European communities and Poland itself, as we well know.
Russia is not somehow "unique" in this respect even though the media focus on this situation seems to be suggesting that Russia is "stodgy" in having a state religion and undemocratic."

One fascinating tidbit in light of this is how the Islamic Russians have reacted. I read an article yesterday where the senior Russian "mufti" strongly condemned the Vatican's actions in a strange act of solidarity with the Russian Orthodox Church. Again, a suggestion that the impact of this action may be broader than the Vatican expected.

"Frankly, I think the Russian Church will come to it, it is only a matter of time, and, ultimately, this, and not the Unia, will be Rome's victory in the ecumenical field."

Yes, I agree that it will happen. The Russians are outgunned, badly, in this case.

"I don't like it any more than you, for different reasons because I myself feel my Church historically "used" by you know who, only to be shunted aside now."

Well, at least someone has come forward and said that. Boy, aren't the Russian Catholics getting shafted here?

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

Just a note to say there are few greater pleasures in my life than to share an intellectually satisfying conversation on issues of mutual interest with someone of your mental and spiritual stature.

And when I say this, the fact that we are in separate, although close, Communions hurts me inside.

May Christ, through His Holy Spirit, unite us in the sacramental bonds of His Oneness, in His Way and in Himself!

Alex