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Mar 25th, 2025
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Bob,
Did I offend you with what I wrote?
Fr. Deacon Lance Father Deacon Lance: Christ is in our midst!! No, of course not. Forgive me. You caught me in cranky mode. Bob
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. . . having talked to men in Courage who live celibate lives while struggling with this disorder . . . Father Deacon Lance: Christ is in our midst!! Maybe this is where I get myself in trouble. I maintain that language is something that needs to be used carefully. It seems to me that someone who proclaims himself to be a homosexual is someone who is already actively acting out. If you struggle with a tendency and--as the Desert Father say "keep it chained"--you're not defined by that tendency. Am I someone who is unfaithful to my wife if I look at another woman, wonder what she'd be like, and then turn to the Lord for the grace to resist both that thought and the acting out on it? Perhaps. But I think there's a distinction here that needs to be made. And I can certainly be supportive of someone who struggles with whatever "thorn in the side" that the Good Lord has given him. After all, that's what gives us the opening to the Holy Spirit's inspiration to turn to the Lord for help. Bob
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. . . having talked to men in Courage who live celibate lives while struggling with this disorder . . . Father Deacon Lance: Christ is in our midst!! Maybe this is where I get myself in trouble. I maintain that language is something that needs to be used carefully. It seems to me that someone who proclaims himself to be a homosexual is someone who is already actively acting out. If you struggle with a tendency and--as the Desert Father say "keep it chained"--you're not defined by that tendency. Am I someone who is unfaithful to my wife if I look at another woman, wonder what she'd be like, and then turn to the Lord for the grace to resist both that thought and the acting out on it? Perhaps. But I think there's a distinction here that needs to be made. And I can certainly be supportive of someone who struggles with whatever "thorn in the side" that the Good Lord has given him. After all, that's what gives us the opening to the Holy Spirit's inspiration to turn to the Lord for help. Bob Brilliant points! The only word which should define us all is the word 'sinner'!!! Individuals don't need to be defined by the propensity to whatever sin one has, whether one is struggling with it in thought or deed, successfully fighting it, or engaging in it. Can you imagine?!? So and so is a homosexual, so and so is an adulterer , so and so is an fornicator, so and so is a slanderer, so and so is a gossip, so and so is a liar (though that is one we hear often, but certainly not one which an individual would proudfully admit to and parade through the streets with), so and so is a coveter, so and so is a worshipper of XYZ idol (take your pick: money, sex, success, material goods, etc.), and the list goes on according to the details of our Lord God's ten commandments of what we should NOT do... The problem is that all too often we think the Ten Commandments given to Moses by our God and Creator are the Ten Suggestions... Indeed, Bob, I am in total agreement with you over the nuances of language. There was a time when the label 'homosexual' was about as pride worthy as being labeled 'fornicator' or 'adulterer'. It referred to a particular sin not an alternate creation to Adam and Eve. What a curious statement about modern times that is. Hmmm.... Alice
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Seems to me the vehement reactions to Archbishop Weakland's imprudence generate more heat than light.
Maybe the Holy Father ought to extend to him the same "invitation" he meted out to the unfortunate founder of the Legionaries of Christ, Father Marcial Maciel; namely, that he lead of life of hidden prayer and penance with no further public ministry.
Vigorous action against Archbishop Weakland would only turn him into a martyr for the homosexual cause, an undesireable outcome.
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Don't forget that Abp. Weakland was a great innovator in the liturgical movement that swept the RC Church. Lex orandi, lex credendi cuts both ways! A little known fact about Archbishop Weakland is that he is also an expert in Ambrosian Chant. Evidently he did his doctorate on the subject I believe, long before he was trying to have a rock and roll band play at one of the churches in Rome. He was part of the liturgical movement along with the late Msgr. Richard Schuler of blessed memory. He then took another path...
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Vigorous action against Archbishop Weakland would only turn him into a martyr for the homosexual cause, an undesireable outcome. Christ is in our midst!! We're all called to give active witness to what we believe in and to the Faith once deliered to the Apostles and passed on to us to pass along to the next generation in unbroken chain. The question I keepreturning to is to what extent should a prominent cleric be given a pass on such scandalous behavior? What damage to the whole fabric of the Faith is done by ignoring this? If the Church's teaching in this area can be modified from two millenia of constant teaching, what next? The culture and many of our brethren have the idea since the 1960s that it's all up for grabs. Those who misinterpreted the Vatican Council and its intentions have given the man in the pew the idea that anything taught prior to 1960 is "out" and we're all beginning with a clean slate after 1965. So with that in mind, it's all arbitrary and it's all up for negotiation or change according to what the current culture and "science" tells us it should be. Is there an objective Truth passed along to us by the Apostles and their successors stemming from Divine Revelation in the Person of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Or is there not? Are we on our own to put together whatever we want? BOB
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does that imply that infidelity in marriage is also "inborn"? Does God make some people unable to be chaste or faithful to marital commitment?
Silouan, monk Excellent point!! Nobody in mainstream media touches this idea that if you can argue that some people are born "gay" than what happens if someone is born unable to be committed in a marriage, doesn't know that, he gets married and then gets a divorce for obvious reasons! In divorce court should that be taken into account?!It breaks down the idea of moral law!
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Although I don't agree, I read a study a while back, that stated men were "wired" to be unfaithful in marriage.
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We ought not to forget what St. Paul has said: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice: 19 Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made. His eternal power also and divinity: so that they are inexcusable. 21 Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God or given thanks: but became vain in their thoughts. And their foolish heart was darkened. 22 For, professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. 23 And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts and of creeping things.
24 Wherefore, God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness: to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause, God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. 27 And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts, one towards another: men with men, working that which is filthy and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. 28 And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient.
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. . . men were "wired" to be unfaithful in marriage. Erie Byz: Christ is in our midst!! Then my wiring must be all off. After 33 years, there's only one woman I want to go home to at the end of the day. Bob
Last edited by theophan; 06/26/09 05:31 PM.
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Me too, Bob, me too. Although I don't go home to her, because we will not be married until January.
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. . . I don't go home to her, because we will not be married until January. Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!! You will, and may January come swiftly for you. BOB
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Gosh, it's been more than 20 years . . .
Folks thought it was downright bizarre that I got an apartment down the street from her (now my wife) rather than moving in . . .
hawk, born in the wrong century
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I was under the impression that the church had handeled all this in the old testament.And if not I guess the Didache from the 100s wasnt clear enough either.St Basil,St John Chrysostom and Justin Martyr made it clear.
chad
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