www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Theotokos? Ever Virgin?

As some of you know, I come to this forum with a Protestant perspective. Having studied systematic theology in a Protestant seminary, I became curious about the term Theotokos (God Bearer) and Yparthenou Maria (ever Virgin Mary}. I read an article written by Presbyter Basileios A. Georgopoulos, Th.D, which seemed to clarify much about the misconceptions many Protestant Christians have about the Mother of God http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/the-person-of-the-theotokos-in-protestant-theology.aspx

Having a bit of knowledge on the writings of Martin Luther, I was amazed by his accepting of the title granted to Mary as theotokos. Even Calvin and Zwingli accepted this title. It seems that it was later, much later in the Reformation did Mary and her role become diminished to myth and legend.

Some of the best known German theologians like Schleiermacher, Brunner and Barth redefined Mary as being nothing more than a vessel for God's work with his creation and nothing more.

I understand the worth and value of asking friends and families for prayer in times of need or in times of joy. This is a regular practice among Protestants today. We also speak of the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant recalling that heaven and earth or full of God's glory. So I ask myself, why it should be improper to ask the most esteemed and most blessed among women for her prayers.

Anyway, I would to love to read your comments on this topic.

Dear Pastor Art,

I enjoyed your post and your open attitude and understanding to the way in which we Orthodox worship...This is the beautiful way of Christians who are called to love each other and be united.

I recall Robert Duvall in the movie 'The Apostle' and how he was passing by the Greek Orthodox service of the Epiphany in Tarpon Springs, Florida where we throw the cross into the water as a 'blessing of the waters' to recall the baptism of our Christ in the Jordan River by Saint John the Baptist...He looked and said with a blessed understanding which steps outside of pride, self love, and cultural arrogance:"you do it your way, and I do it my way, but in the end we are all focused on the same thing"--(or something to that effect)...

If only all conservative Christians of Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox persuasion were able to appreciate each other!

Respectfully in Christ our Lord and Saviour,
Alice

P.S. We absolutely do love our Blessed Theotokos as our heavenly intercessor...she absolutely loves us and will ask God to grant our prayers, just as a loving family member might do. She is indeed a family member to all mankind--she is the Mother of God but also Heavenly Mother to us all!

Most Protestant apologists will cast doubts on the title "ever Virgin" by citing as proof texts Gospel passages which make reference to the brothers and sisters of Jesus. What they seem to have missed is that, in Middle Eastern Semitic cultures, one refers to one's cousins and other blood relatives as brothers and sisters. There is also, in some Eastern places, an assertion that St. Joseph was much older than the Theotokos, and that he had previously been married, was widowed, and had children by that prior marriage-thus accounting for the reference to the "brothers and sisters" of Jesus.

As to the term "Theotokos", it was deemed, by an early Ecumenical Council of the Church (Ephesus), proper to assign that term to the Holy Virgin, because she is the Mother of the One Divine Person, Jesus Christ. The Christological teachings of the early (first six) Councils about Our Lord upheld that, in Jesus Christ, we have one Divine Person with two natures (Divine and Human), and with two wills (Divine and Human). Some Evangelical friends of mine are comfortable with a formulation whereby the Holy Virgin is the mother of the Human Christ, but not the Divine Christ. Such a formula divides the person of Jesus Christ, and was condemned very early in the history of the Church. It had been taught by the heretic Nestorius, and ,today, that heresy is known as "Nestorianism". Throwing out Holy Tradition (the teachings of Our Lord which were not recorded in Scripture, but were taught directly to the Apostles, and preserved in the Church down through the ages) was devestating for that part of the world which identified with the Reformation, because people began to re-hash questions that had been settled centuries before by Councils of the Church. I am encouraged by the fact that more and more Evangelical academics are beginning to discover the early Ecumenical Councils, and Early Fathers of the Church.

In Christ,
Deacon Robert

Preachy,

What strikes me about the discussions I've heard from Protestant sources on the subject of Mary's perpetual virginity is that they always base their conclusions on Matthew's account, never on Luke's.

The ambiguity of Matthew's "until" is no problem in the light of Luke's "I do not know man."


Peace,
Deacon Richard

I forgot to throw in my "two cents" about Schleirmacher and Barth. My paternal grandfather was Lutheran (my maternal Grandfather was Anglican-the women were Catholics). I know a little about the fights in Lutheranism which were provoked by the advent of the writings and teachings of Bultmann and others, and "higher criticism" of Holy Scripture. The "modernism" of that time was a combination of rationalism ( a suspicion of the supernatural in Scripture-Bultmann was definitely guilty of that), and subjectivism (the notion that Religion is a "funny inner feeling", and that one cannot know religious truth in a dogmatic sense, i.e., "my truth is as good as your truth"). From what I remember, Schleiermacher was definitely a leading subjectivist. Also, from what I recall, Barth was also a leading "luminary" in Liberal Protestantism. I can see where they would be inclined to downgrade the status of the Mother of God. What has been taught about her down through the ages doesn't line up well with the "Christ of History" whom their adherents are still trying to find (as opposed to the "Christ of Faith", which they see as being not the same Christ, but an invention of the pious). So, even if I were a Missouri Synod Lutheran (they uphold the supernatural in Scripture, and dismiss the scribblings of Bultmann and Schleirmacher), I would be inclined to regard favorably the terms "Theotokos" and "Ever Virgin Mary", for no other reason than that Bultmann, Barth, and Schleiermacher rejected them. Enough of my rambling. Hope this contributed something constructive to the conversation.

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

My dear brother,

It is amazing that you should mention the movie "The Apostle", it happens to be one of my favorites on many levels. It demonstrates our sinful nature and the promise of redemption through the saving work of God's Holy Spirit.

The nasty little secret that is never told or paid attention to is that Evangelical/Protestant/Reformist seminaries teach patristics but it rarely filters down to the congregation level.

The ways in which we worship (latria) reflects our true beliefs. Unfortunately many Reformed Christians are not familiar with the mystical theology of the Orthodox Church. I think sometimes that we become comfortable culturally and religiously with what we know. Perhaps this is a greater problem because we do not feel right if we cannot define our Almighty God in terms we can understand.

I am a great adherent of apophatic theology. It is unreasonable to believe that God or His works can be understood or defined with our finite and imperfect minds. I remember the great Byzantine historian Steven Runciman saying and I believe he was quoting an early desert father, "All we know about God is that we know nothing about God. Because if we knew everything about God, then we would not need God."

Much can be said about this theology when speaking of the Theotokos and the mysteries of the Holy Spirit.

I dare say that this misunderstanding is not confined to the Protestants, but to many Orthodox believers as well. We can all do better in understanding our faith and to be illumined by the nous within us.

Amen?

I am as well Father Deacon,

You are correct in placing scripture in the context of the culture and family framework of the time. Unfortunately, Evangelical Christianity is now undergoing a great period of apostasy. Of course for every action there is a reaction. The reaction is framed in the return to the ancient texts of the Early Fathers of the ancient Church of Jesus Christ. These heresies that you speak of are resurfacing in ways that are unparalleled in the world's history. It is for this reason we as holders and protectors of the true gospel of Jesus Christ cannot afford to slothful in our knowledge and practice.

I am in possession of a rather large commentary of the bible titled "Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture" which was edited by Thomas C. Oden http://www.ivpress.com/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/code=1470

This commentary is full of the writings of the early church fathers and is an excellent resource for all students of Holy Scripture.

You are correct,

The advent of liberal Christianity was during the modernist period and much of what western Christianity is facing today is a direct result of these theories.

We have much to learn!

I forgot to mention that I was also impressed by The Apostle because as a young boy my mother took me to a funeral of a dear friend of hers who was African American. I'll never forget going through the police barricades and rioting people which was very common during the race riots of the sixties. There we were, the only white folks in the entire church and we were loved and cared for as we all come to praise God together for he wonderful life of that saintly friend of my mother's. I can remember to this day the absolute joy that was expressed by these people and wish we could also express the same joy of the resurrection at our mournful funerals today.

Hehehe...dear Pastor Art--I am your 'sister', not your 'brother'!!

Be well,
Alice

Ooops

I'm just glad that we are related to each other

I was raised in a Southern Baptist home, and came into the Eastern Church when I was thirty. Of course as a child, wakes were held in the homes of those who had passed, in the south we didn't have funeral homes. I always remember family members talking about what family members that has passed, coming to take someone home. Or the person would say outloud, I see my mother or something to that effect. At one wake, there was a definate image - on clean, well starched, ironed sheets - where someone had been sitting on the bed. I remember the relative saying that the person had said Jesus was here to take them home. There was a very clear indication someone was there we could not see. Well to me, if God cared enough to send someone's mom to take them home, why would he not care enough to send Jesus's mom to take them home.

Good point.

Dear Pastor Art,

You mentioned funerals, and actually there is a reason that the African American funeral is different in spirit than the Orthodox one...the solemnity displayed in the Orthodox funeral is for a reason:

Although we Orthodox celebrate the Resurrection of Christ at Easter in an unprecedented way amongst Christian traditions, we are never convinced that we will be saved at the time of our death...the pious pray fervently for the departed because we are all sinners and we are all dependent on God's great mercy at His awesome judgement seat.

This memorial prayer for the dead pretty much sums it up:

Christ our eternal King and God, You have destroyed death and the devil by Your Cross and have restored man to life by Your Resurrection; give rest, Lord, to the soul of Your servant (name) who has fallen asleep, in Your Kingdom, where there is no pain, sorrow or suffering. In Your goodness and love for all men, pardon all the sins he (she) has committed in thought word or deed, for there is no man or woman who lives and sins not, You only are without sin.

For You are the Resurrection, the Life, and Repose of Your servant (name), departed this life, O Christ our God; and to You do we send up glory with Your Eternal Father and Your All-holy, Good and Life-creating Spirit; both now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen

Respectfully in Christ our Saviour,
Alice

Yes sister,

We ask of our Lord His perfect grace and forgiveness both in life and in death. We cannot or should say that we are guaranteed the kingdom by just saying that we have been saved as so many of us born again Christians claim. This is an unbelieveable arrogance on our part.

Being born again is the turning away from sin to receive the King of Glory. This is something that does not happen in the twinkle of an eye or with the proclaimation of "once saved, always saved!"

True conversion of our hearts, minds, and souls is only accomplished by the letting go of our wills to accept Christ not once, but each day of our earthly pilgrimage. This is theosis as I understand it. But how is it possible for us as frail beings to meet this standard of holiness? I believe it is possible and part of God's wonderful plan for abundant life to take on the spirtual exercise of hesychia or the inner stillness of prayer.

There is a prerequiste to this and it is humility.