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Administrator & AmdG,

You can go jump off a cliff. I'm not the problem and neither of you are going to do that shift the blame game with me. *70* Priests in 10 years is no small problem, and the Boston Archdiocese is not so big as so to make this a simple and rare case load. Serious questions face the Church and they are already out in the public view - not because Maximus ever decide to speak about pedophile crimes in the Priesthood - but because, appearantly, many Bishops have chosen a path quite more similar to you two.

No I'm not saying the monastaries are full of pedophilers - infact I would think it would one of the few places that pedophilia is almost absent, and if there were monastics with pedophilia tendencies, I think it's fair to say they are sincerely trying to avoid harming children - and even better master themselves. A noble trait I would say. My problem with monastics today is that I'm not quite sure at all that it is about selfmastery today.

And for all this Maximus quoting things out of the Milwaukee Journal stuff, well I almost want to roll on the ground and laugh... because I know darn well if I was posting on militant Muslim terrorist groups arrested in an appearant plot to blow some Cathedral full of people in New York... the same critics of my post would be as silent as a deep sleep.

And no I don't think putting these Priest in therapy and keeping them in the world would be best. Sex is a strong controling force that controls most of the world in some degree or other. This is just life and accept it. The monastery is a great place for all numbers of people. We just no longer veiw things that way, but I do. I'm not saying the monastery is punishment, but look at it this way: what is most important? Your soul? Or worldly fredom? Life is not fair, and for some of us we might have to lose our life to gain our life - or so says Maximus.

I think we should talk about this issue. But, I think we should do it in a receptable manner. I think it would be a mistake to just ignore this problem facing the Catholic Church.

You guys are a lot smarter than I, how do you suggest we go about this topic?

Maximus,

How does your additional voice which repeatedly attacks those who have sinned help them to repent, get up, and begin to make amends and develop ways of preventing such tragedies to occur in the future? Why are you throwing stones instead of helping? What is the specific link to the Byzantine Church that caused you to post this story here?

It is clear that in this case those who lead us (bishops and priests) have failed to live up to the example of Christ and could have done much more to prevent additional harm. How do your repeated attacks help the situation? Will you feel better when you have attacked everyone?

In your profile you describe yourself as interested in “the female shape, living, good works (hopefully), theology, & good bloody fight”. The Byzantine Forum exists as a meeting place for those wishing to grow in Christ, with discussions focused upon Byzantine Christianity. It does not exist for those who are interested in fighting. There are places on the internet which exist for that purpose and I invite you to go to those places if you choose not to behave with Christian charity.

Administrator

RC@work,

I suggest that those wishing to continue this thread should focus on providing ideas on how to:

1) help those who have been harmed and
2) prevent such tragedies in the future.

An honest, open and constructive discussion is welcome. Tabloid newspaper type discussions will not be tolerated. In other words, if you have nothing constructive to say then don't say anything.

Administrator

It's clear we have two entirely different approaches as to how to prevent such rampant cases of pedophilia in the Church. Mine is shaped from military experience, I don't know if you have military experience or not, but by the sound of your banter it doesn't, it sounds more like mystical feel good conjectures void of practical reasoning.

As to your two suggestion:
1) Accountability
2) Accountability

I never served as an Officer and I achieved the lowest NCO rank in the military. With all of that, if under my watch some if this stuff had gone on under my nose that went on in Boston and other locations of the Catholic Church under the nose of the Bishops. That would have been my balls (sorry to be graphic) there is lack of tolerance for weak leadership in the military and accountability is demanded. If under your watch things fail to meet expectations - you are held accountable, what you wish would have happened and what you are sorry about will not stay your relieve of command. Believe it or not this produces results.

I've offered my opinion now on how to make change and I offered before. But I have no doubt you will consider these statements of mine not to be suggestion of change but the lack of chairty and the work of the evil one. Primarily because it does not jive with your effiminate ideas of leadership.

The Boston GLOBE has been following this issue for quite some time. Yesterday, they had a large number of articles focusing on the different aspects of the problem: legal, psychological, administrative, etc. It was also the occasion of the Cardinal turning over the names of suspected individuals to law enforcement (district attorneys in several counties).

Before imaginations start to run wild, it is best to get the factual information.

Check out: http://www.boston.com/globe/ and use the "special reports" bar on the left to follow to the stories.

A point was made on the radio several nights ago about a young Moslem woman who went to the DMV to get a driver's license. Since she was only 17, she was to have the profile photo. But she was wearing a scarf on her head and nothing was visible except her nose. She refused to remove it, on religious grounds. The agent refused to take her picture and she couldn't get the license. She is suing. The point that the commentator made was this: you follow the laws that are in effect in the place where you reside. If you don't like those laws, then move elsewhere. The same is true for the transgressions of the clergy. In highly Catholic Boston, being a priest is a highly visible and VERY respected position. (Those old Bing Crosby movies hit the nail on the head.) But if these priests are indeed guilty of injuring children, then they should just go to jail just like anyone else would. Or move someplace where injuring children is not against the law.

Friends,

On this matter I agree completely with Maximus and I find that he has followed the Administrator's guidelines. This problem is not second hand gossip it is happening. I'm happy to be BC but I've heard about some problems that trouble me in the BC Church as well, not about Pedophilia, but serious nontheless.

Let us pray that Rome will boot these wayward Bishop's and let the Holy Spirit convict them of their sins and bring them to repentance.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Dan and Maximus,

Number one, I too had military training.

Number two, I don't question your debate of this issue.

Number three, but what I find rather reprehensible is the charge of "effeminate leadership" and the totally unacceptable "jump off a cliff" ESPECIALLY as directed toward our Administrator.

If you think I'm going to sit back and not say anything in defence of our Commander in Chief here, well that's not what I was taught way back when.

Look, the Administrator has put me in check here when I needed it. I didn't think I needed it at the time, but today I know that I did.

Rather than whine and have a hiss-fit, show some gentlemanliness here and some deference to the Administrator who has a hard enough job as it is dealing with people like us who can sometimes act like total jerks.

If you were in our parliament, the Speaker would really kick your butt out of the Chamber.

If you really did have military training, Maximus, which I don't doubt, show some respect for the Commander here! Since you are new here, the accepted rubric is, when corrected by the Administrator, take your computer mouse in your right hand, bring it up in a full salute and say, "Yes, Sir!"

Sorry, but I'm entitled to at least one blow-up a month,

Alex

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Apparently, the problem is not limited to the USA. There is a recent story about problems not only with Pedophilia but Child abuse in Ireland. CBS is reporting the story. It appears the Church settled out of court for a lot of money. Why are the Bishops not accountable? Shouldn't the Church not only discipline the priest but the Bishops? Haven't you heard the expression, "the caption goes down with the ship"?

I really believe that the Cardinal in Mass. should resign. The only way I see to resolve this issue is to have accountability all the way to the top.

I have to drive 1hr to go to a Byzantine Liturgy. If we have to let many priest go and close churches. So be it! The other RC's can drive 1hr to Mass like I do. I would rather have a SMALL church with Good Priest and Bishops than a Large Church well you know...

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

Maximus,

Nothing in my posts asking you to approach this (and all) posts with Christian charity denies the importance of or call to accountability. Sharon was the first person to raise the specific issue of accountability since you were posting in attack mode.

Just how would the military handle this situation? Would they rant and rave about it? The many military folks that I know would have held their emotions in check, conducted an investigation and prosecuted anyone they found evidence against. Superior officers who knew of the problem yet chose to do nothing would also be brought to justice for actions (or lack thereof). This is exactly what needs to be done in this situation in Boston (and, for that matter, anywhere else such horrible tragedies occur).

If your intention in starting this thread was to site the problem and call for accountability you muddled it by not being specific and with the extraneous text about protestantizing the Mass, sending pedophilia priests to monasteries (for which you issued a disclaimer that you had “limited observation and experience” ) .

Please answer the following questions:

1) What specific actions have you taken in your local Church (parish or diocese) to make sure this does not happen locally?
2) How have you expressed your voice to the proper Church authorities (through the chain of command) with your specific ideas and your call that the Church discipline its own in addition to the criminal and civil proceedings underway?
3) What specific and constructive outcome did you expect by raising this issue in an internet forum?

Justice demands actions, not just words.

Maybe what we need around here is a course on how to conduct a civil debate?

Administrator

Dear Administrator,

You are right and I would like to withdraw a number of my remarks to Maximus, especially the reference to what would happen to his butt.

It was untoward and I apologise.

Alex

Here is another thought; should we give talks to our altar boys before they join up? Should we forbid our priest from being alone with our children? Why not make this a global rule?

Should we as laity set up an independant organization to question the children of the parish about their relations with the clergy? Maybe start a private fund? If the Bishops will not do their job maybe we should do it for them?

(I am trying to ignore the rest of the post for obvious reasons.)

Dear Raymond,

You seem to be falling into the mind-set that the liberal press would like you to be in, that the Church is somehow rampant with pedophiles etc.

There are no more pedophiles in the Church than there are in the army, sports etc.

It is an issue that is being dealt with objectively by the courts and the Church. I've worked on several such cases involving the Church MYSELF.

I went at these hell-bent in anger against the bishop.

I came away realizing that there are some real cases of abuse, as there are in other contexts that I've also dealt with in the workplace, and there are people who simply bring false charges against the Church in the hope of getting a good settlement.

And such false charges, widely reported in the press and doing great damage to the Church, are later proven false - but, guess what, no headlines when that happens.

Alex

I don't know what to believe. But maybe having an independent organization made up of the Laity might help settle some of the minds of the Laity toward the Church.

However, the situation in Mass. is really a no brainer for me if the facts reported by the press are correct. In that case I believe the Cardinal should resign.

Alex,

That is fine. And I don't like disrespecting people. But who was it - AmdG who blatantly tried to shift blame to me and then the Administrator while starting off his post charitable seemed to participate in the shift blame game with his question as to why I posted about the Boston Archdiocese... seeming to allude to me that I was some how trying to stir up trouble. When infact I, probably unlike most, would like things - even such as pedophilia - to be handled inside the confines of the Church and not outside by civilian law enforcement or courts of law. But this desire of mine for the Priesthood, Priests, to find protection and resolution quitely within the confines of the Church, becomes comprimised by what seems to be a brazen attitude of dallusion and disregard by the heirarchy of the Church when it comes to matters of Priests sexualy assulting children. Then in the case of *70* Priest in a 10 year span accussed of child molestation in one metropolitan Archdiocese, brought to the attention of the world, it becomes scandle! Not initiated by my post on the Byzantine Forum but by the failure of the heirarchy of the Church to act quick enough or responsibly enough. Apperantly the heirarchy of the Church depends on the catholic laity believing that 70 Catholic Priest charged with child molestation (in one institution - the Priesthood) throughout 10 years is comparable to the accusations of child molestation in Boston public schools and police department and fire department combined.

There is another element here that bothers me. That of me being uncharitable towards those guilty of child molestation or those who fail to act to protect the children. Maybe it sounds that way, but in know way do I hate these people or stand in judgment of them. I only judge there actions or lack of. The thing is... I actually feel very bad for these Priest, because now they have to face an American prison system which I assure you is far more uncharitable towards them then I. The way I see it monastic life would not have been the most horendous affair for them, though some of them may have percieved it that way. You work, you study, you pray, you meditate and contemplate, you eat well and have chance to chat so often with a few freinds and occasionaly drink a glass of wine. For those who lack real world experience to for see what pain and abuse is about to befall these poor Priest, only the choice of monasticism would seem to be a brutal punishment. H#$$ many people in third world countries live far worst and hand to mouth, and no sex if their crippled or deformed, then do the American monastic societies - not to mention there exist some rather well looking studs and well built, who made a choice to enter into monastic life on their own accord, when they could have a respectable future with sex with a wife and a good paying job for those that were college educated.