www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Boston Revelation Of Clergy - State Of Emergency

Dear Maximus,

I don't disagree with what you've said and that is fine, you speak your mind articulately and forcefully.

Sometimes a bit too forcefully . . .

Have a great weekend.

Alex

Admin,

To be honest no I haven't done anything about this. I've been more talk then action. However if it makes any difference it was not until this case in Boston - and to find out today the 70 Priest thing - that I've felt the Church is rampant with this problem.

Bringing the perspective back to Byzantium...

http://www.pokrov.org/

Of course, your mileage may vary, since the organization is led by (and under the protection of) persons with a rather "effeminate" leadership style.

[RichC... you're ahead of me!]

Earlier in this thread, there was a reference as to the problem in the EO Churches. There is a website called Protection of the Theotokos, which is for victims of abuse in the Orthodox Church (http://www.pokrov.org/).

It appears to be a "lay" initiated website. I don't know or would want to even speculate as to the severity of the problem for the EO's. But I do think that it may be easier for individuals to slip through the cracks because of the fragmented jurisdictions. Also, they seem to have more of a problem with quasi- or non-canonical monastaries springing up overnight. In the Protestant Churches where it would seem to be easier for a person to jump ship or even denominations, I think the problem would also be harder to keep track of.

But, having a strong, centralized church hierarchy/government hasn't helped the RC's. It has proved the opposite. There has been a history of way too many hush-ups, pay-offs, and sweepings under the rug. This history just helps feed the anti-religion folks and sours even the more temperate minds.

Pedophilia, illicit affairs, and criminal acts will happen. Priests, ministers, and rabbis are human, and no screening process will ever be 100%. But when these unfortunate, tragic situations arise, they need to be dealt with honestly, forcefully, and compassionately. We are all recovering sinners.

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: moncobyz ]

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: moncobyz ]

My Fellow Posters:

I recognize that there are problems with some clergy in the Latin Church around issues of sexuality of all types. To deny the truth that some of our clergy are less than healthy would be foolish. To pretend that members of the clergy are sinless would be to deny reality.

I want to thank the Administrator, Alex, Serge, Sharon and the others who point out that the size of the Latin Church and the visibility of our clergy make them easy pickings. Some of you have been most kind in pointing out that the percentage of pedophiles, who by the way can be either heterosexual or homosexual in orientation, is about the same as in the general population. Your concern that this not become a cause celebre here is particularly gratifying to me as a Latin Catholic.

That being said, I think that it is important to present a couple of thoughts.

1. The issue is being addressed. Its ugly head has been raised and the bishops are working to address it in the selection of candidates for seminary entrance. There is testing being done at that point.

2. The American Bishops have developed recommended procedures for local ordinaries to follow to eliminate the possibility of damage to other young people when the problem is identified.
In fact the recent guides issued by the Vatican for use around the world have, in large part, been taken from the ground breaking work of the American bishops as they attempt to deal fairly with all involved.

3. The discipline of an individual priest found guilty of such crimes is increasingly at the hands of the civil authorities in our country.

4. The problem is being dealt with at the appropriate places as is indicated by the national and international guidelines being put into place.

I understand the heinous nature of the situations being discussed here. They are repugnant to me.

It's just that many of us come here to learn of the East. This kind of stuff distracts us from the focus.

I, like others, do not understand the reason that the article is brought here. If it is just to vent, is there a real need to do a public venting here in the Forum? Is it a sudden realization of the existence of the problem that led to raising the issue for information? There is much in the media easily available on the web, even in Catholic media about the issue. This is not a new issue and this is not the first time papers have written about it.

There are sites where such things are discussed ad nauseam. I agree with the administrator that if one needs to study this issue, there are places to go where others with expertise can help.
The administrator, in my opinion is providing wise leadership here.

But here it is. Not for long, I trust. I truly hope that we can again return to the East, its doctrine, its traditions and its practices as the focus of discussion here.

I certainly do not deny the evil done by sinners and sick people who are members of my Church.
But the sick and sinners got much attention from Christ. His actions showed love for the sinner and the sick. He didn't throw the first stone; He even found it in His Heart to forgive them.

Steve
JOY!

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

This topic regretfully is not unknown to the Orthodox Church either. In Orthodox countruies when this has occurred a church court is held and the priest, if unmarried, is sent to a monastery where he will live under a very strict rule. He is kept isolated from the majority of the monastic community---his priesthood either suspended or he is deposed.

I have read that there are very specific monasteries where these priests and monastics are sent when this criminal behavior is discovered.
In the United States, the Orthodox hierarchs tend to do as the RC bishops have done---tried to settle it out of court, suspend the priest, and for the past several years , they have turned the perpetrator over to the civil authorities.

The best thing I think we can do is pray that our hierarchs have the courage to do what is needed in these cases. Pray for the redemption and repentance of the perpetrator, and for the healing of mind and soul of the innocent victims.


Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

My dear friend Maximus,

This is the first time that someone has told me “to jump off” a cliff and only after 3 posts in this Forum. If you reread my post, I never “shifted” the blame on you nor did I identify you as “the problem.”

But, somehow, I feel privileged to have been lumped together with the Administrator to do the
“harakiri,” as I see him more civil toward us all, especially to you at this moment, than you as shown by your strident reactions to our posts.

I don't have the desire nor the inclination to emulate the kamikazes of the Japanese imperial navy of bygone days or the skewed reasoning of the Muslim terrorists of 911. Only our Creator
possesses that prerogative of taking back my life.

I thought suicidal ideation was the chosen refuge of those hopelessly depressed and of those with
endlessly tortured minds. I am not.

To quench your thirst for obeisance to “military” directives, I might take you on and “jump off the cliff” as ordered. I cannot speak for the good Administrator, so we should leave him behind as he were, busy salving bruised egos in this Forum. Off the precipice we go!

But before we signal the drums to roll, let me forewarn you that I might be able to glide, or even fly, over the chasm and land safely on the other side. Because I don't have any excess baggage with me nor do I tote along a hidden agenda. Like Ali, I think I can float like a butterfly! Have yourself a memorable weekend!

Pax in Domino!

AmdG

Rich,

Thanks for this information. The entire Church needs such a movement.

Bringing the perspective back to Byzantium...
http://www.pokrov.org/

Dan L

Dear in Christ,

Glory to Jesus Christ,

I read this thread with such sadness. These stories are so distressing, especially when I think of the innocents and young ones who have been hurt so greviously.

I have seen similar stories in the press in England, as there were so many such revelations there, along with the sad cases of "cover-up" and re-offence. I think the Churches there, and now here, have had to confront their own mistakes.

I am grateful for the Administrator's tone in this discussion, and his good advice and direction. I know that prayer is very powerful, and we must pray for those innocents and injured ones.

Constructive ideas are few and hard to come by. It seems the concensus of the authorities today, that the only thing for the Church to do, is to cooperate fully and completely with the law enforcement and competent civil prosecution.

Once upon a time, bishops effectively ran their own courts, and even ran their own prisons! (Clergy crime is sadly not merely a 21st century phenonmenon). At times, monks even staffed such places.

However, today there are no such places. When we read Saint John's Ladder, we see the place in monastic life, for the sincerely repentent, who choose to spend their life mourning, and doing penance. In such a case, perhaps such a mourning sinner might choose monastic life. (However, he would not be sent, against his will!) There may be a case for a penitent in a monastery, but the monastery is no place to hide from the world, or from oneself either. The monastery cannot ever be a place to hide from civil justice either.

All monks are sinners, but I fear for an image of monastic life which I read about here and there. At times I wonder who has had a "postive" experience with a priest, or monk, spiritual father? I for one have had many, and I thank God for the inspiration that these fathers-in-God have been to me.

Yet I recognize how our whole priestly brotherhood has been harmed by these sad crimes. If we accept the Vatican Council's thoughts on the priesthood, where we are a college... sharing in the good works and prayers of our whole presbyteral community; then perhaps we too must share in the guilt and shame of this criminality within the brotherhood. I feel a need to do penance for my criminal priestly brothers. I feel the weight of this sadness in my own life and ministry.

May I offer a suggestion? As clear as it is that we must not hide from this issue, or conceal criminal behaviour wherever it occurs in our priestly fraternity; at the same time, we must not let the devil have another victory, and so discredit our whole ministry as to make it ineffective in the world. How the evil one will laugh when he accomplishes this and cripples our Church.

For the sake of the Gospel, we must prosecute criminal priests, and at the same time not allow the whole priesthood to be made a thing of disgrace. A world without the priestly ministry is unthinkable, for by the mysteries, and the multiplication of blessings and grace the devil is hemmed in and confined, and the faithful can choose salvation.

Prosecute and confine the criminal, but please pray for the increase of the priesthood, for the growth of the Church, and for the salvation of souls. Deprive the evil one of victory, and affirm the holiness (as we do this great sinfulness) that exists in our experience of the priesthood.

A constructive suggestion, is that we do not isolate and fear priests as a whole. There are so many dangers here, including the possibility that such men, cut off from normal society, families, and friendships will turn more to other comforts for their lonliness (drink, or worse...). When you know of a good priest, and a pastor you respect and know to be worthy, continue to affirm and support and encourage them, with the same passion that it is correct to condemn the criminal and errant ones.

We can screen seminarians, and even ordinands. Yet even good men can change, and fall. Prevention in the future will be more about support and the structures that serve and strengthen the fraternity. Priests must support their own, especially in times of sadness and loneliness and temptation. Who will minister to a minister? We must encourage such support groups, especially among isolated and often over-worked men.

The authority which has erred greviously and covered-up criminal activity now realize how they have not helped either the victims or the priests. They realize now how much they have hurt the Church by this wrongful course of action, and they have now chosen to cooperate fully with the criminal justice system. If anyone thought that the Church never makes mistakes in its judgement (is there anyone left with that opinion?), here is proof of a grave error.

As the authority seems truly sorry, and wants to make a sincere commitment to correct itself, we might recognize a Christian duty to offer forgiveness for their mistake. (I am speaking here of the decision to conceal this priestly problem, not of the criminals themselves). Shall we in prayer, find the heart to forgive His Emminence? Priests are good at forgiving others (part of the job), and let us try to find it in our heart to forgive this mistake of judgement. The Bishops as a group have admitted the mistake, and have pledged not to repeat it.

I remember the injunction from our Lord... the one about the mill-stone around the neck, being a preferable fate, to the one in store for him who leads a little one astray. In the end, it is right to remember that whatever about the civil courts, the Lord is a just judge, and each one will be held accountable for his deeds. Such thoughts can be comforting to victims, that justice will be done, but it can also make all of us tremble, for justice is God's, and only the sinless among us really can cast stones. I for one, must not accuse anyone, and tremble to speak except to ask for God's mercy.

Let this thread be a call to each of us, as members of the Church, to pray for the victims of these terrible crimes. Let us also pray for our Church, and for its growth in holiness, and for the final defeat of the evil one, the triumph of the Church.

Elias

Our brother, the Monk Elias, gives good advice.

There is the danger that these unfortunate events will redound to condemn the entire community of priests. From a logical point of view, this is just stupid -- but understandable.

To quote St Paul (oh, Lord, I'm quoting Scripture -- which I never do!), a priest is "a man chosen by God from among the people".

He's not a 'god'; he's not perfect; he's not infallible. He's just a guy like us who has stepped forward to accept the challenges of serving God's people.

Might he have 'issues'? He wouldn't be human if he didn't. And sometimes these issues overwhelm the charism that comes with ordination. And it is a clear failing -- perhaps as a result of his lack of discipline, perhaps as a result of mental illness.

We must not condemn him. It's not our job. What IS our job is to make sure that he is not put in a position to do evil. This responsiblity rests squarely upon the shoulders of not only his 'supervisor', the bishop, but also on the shoulders of all who suspect a problem. After all, we are a human (not divine) community.

I personally would ask that we all pray for the victims of these abuses, and for those who perpetrated them. And beg the Lord to guide us in our future actions to ensure that it never happens again.

Blessings, y'all!!

Monk Elias,

Thank you for your most constructive post. I'm curious about your comment...

Once upon a time, bishops effectively ran their own courts, and even ran their own prisons! (Clergy crime is sadly not merely a 21st century phenonmenon). At times, monks even staffed such places.

Where might I read more on this? Do you recall a source or sources? Have you read anything new on the Pope's directive that such crimes by priests be reported directly to Rome? Do you think that episcopal prisons staffed by monks or something like it may be in the future? It seems like a better solution that secular prison.

Dan Lauffer

Glory to Jesus Christ,

No Dan, I don't see a future for such a monastic prison. In fact, they were not prisons, with monastic guards. But monasteries had prison cells for errant monks (and sometimes others sent by a bishop). There would be a locked cell somewhere in the monastery, much as there would be an infirmary (hospital) etc. etc.

Bishops ran their own courts when they often held civil juristiction in the middle ages. Often they were the only ones able to read the law, and run such courts. Then, gradually as the middle ages ended, they surrendered these courts to the state. Many such courts in Europe, have the barristers wearing pseudo-monastic clothing, judges in deacons' orars etc. The last aspect Bishops surrendered was juristiction over clerics, and trials of clerics.

No, the Church has many more important things to do than staff prisons. And I can't think of any monk who would like to do such a thing.

Elias

Hi,

Growing up next door to a Rectory I have had only positive experiences with Clergy & Religious. I don't think of these men that you are speaking of here as true Priests. They had these tendencies long before they became Priests and they used our Church to do these things because Priests are authority figures.They schemed their way into the Priesthood. I my opinion they were never true Priests they were imposters, they should be excommunicated,they should go to jail. If they had any good in their hearts knowing what they are why would they put theirselves in these positions? They don't love or care about the Church. I have no problem separating what they are what they've done ,from my Church and I'm just a nose pickin' housewife. Why can't the Hierarchy see that? Why would you keep someone in the Church who purposely used it for evil and did so much damage to the Church?

Nicky's Baba

The victims of pedophile clergymen and clergywomen seldom return to their respective religious institutiions.


Some of them never return to religion, though will often concoct their own personal spirituality that is without hierarchy or controlling figures and their (by necessity) personalized religion will often be the antithesis of the faith they left behind.

Some of them will spend at least some time living in a fantasy world of changing personas or identities. It is almost as if they believe they can remove the "dirt and filth" of their traumatic experience by becoming a "new creation;" but not the new creation of the scriptures.


This new creation is a psychological one, which includes the creation of fantasy figures and personalities. In other words, the trauma produces behaviors which are clearly analogous to those of easily recognizable mental illnesses.


The best way to help these traumatized souls is to help them to move on. Like women who are the victims of rape and will never again be able to experiece an intimate and loving relationship with a man, the victims fo clerical pedophilia might never well make the journey home, but will have to journey eslewhere to find a spiritual home they will feel safe in.


Of course, this rejection of one's spiritual roots can be very traumatic for the family of a victim, especially if they have a strong commitment to their faith community. But true love lets go of the beloved and frees the wounded bird and helps it to soar and fly and grow in a spiritual atmosphere of security, purity, and peace of the spirit and soul---oh--lovely peace and happy day!

Other poor souls, I am afraid, will go through a period of time (maybe a lifetime) where they will seem to embrace a new religion every month (an exaggeration, but you get the point). One little incident, one little reminder or deja vu experience will send them down the street or across town looking desperately for a new spiritual experience; one as separated as possible from any links to the past; links both real and imagined.

A few will find forgiveness in their hearts for their tormentors and the courage to return to their churches. They will have to struggle through the experience of cleansing their vision of the dirt and filth of the trauma that occludes their vision and prevents them from seeing and experiencing the beauty of their faith.

These same souls will also experience a love/hate relationship with their religion that will plague them for the rest of their lives.

But out of this fraternity of souls will come great reformers who have been tested by fire and are often fearless in their quest to make the church what Christ died to make it be: the pure Bride of Christ and a loving mother who puts the needs of her children first, no matter the cost.


But the roller-coaster ride pilgrimage of emotions is hell to endure.


Sonny

[ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: Sonny ]

AmdG,

First of all you should reread your post. The tactic you displayed would be considered by the mental health community classic example of shift blame. An example of this would be if you came to me and told me my brother slashed your sisters car tires, and I respond to you... in lets say demanding to know why you could not properly protect your sisters honor? Something that has nothing to do with her car tires per se or more to the point the situation that occured as it occured, but rather I put you under the interogating lights of blame.

And my post said what was reported and I gave my opinion as to the Church being in a state of emergency. I don't recall me condenming all Catholic Priest in the world. And I don't see how my post of this current situation in the Church is so less credible then lets say... if there should be pews in the Church, or no freakin statues latinizing the Eastern world. But yet after *70* Priest and the well known story of this one Priest now in Boston and the Bishops that served over him... I find it rather interesting that you and a number of others on here (oops... I forgot some here want to know and only concern themselves with the Eastern Church, so I guess their not really Catholic) find me to be the source of stiring up some trouble in the Catholic Church and not the Bishops of Boston. And my ego... well yes I was disapointed by being turned down for the monastery, but I didn't take it and use it as a grudge against the Church, I just kept on keeping on. Life is life it has it's ups and downs. But I assure you my ego being busted by the Church is rather laughable, it was the for the Catholic Church I turned down an offer to join join the Masons, it was for the Catholic Church I turned down inventations from a Protestant Minister to join his Church study under his wing and become whatever I could up incoming in his Church, for it was as he saw it - so much great potential of whatever. Does any of this make me some unique and special person - no, and I don't need anyone to think so. But if I was out looking soley for my ego rubbed and networking with success, I assure you I could find better places then the Catholic Church. My reason for being Catholic is because it is what I found to be the truth or at least I try my best to keep in faith that it is the truth. And though I was a cradle Catholic my true conversion came a few years ago when I first confessed since my last confession. It took me a year to even do that, but alas when I was absolved by the Priest with the power vested in him by Christ, I began to convert. Fact is I'm still converting.

But I have many of my own problems in life, these take enough energy in themselves, and honestly I have began to grow weary of the Church. I want to be a better man, and that means being around better people. I have begun to question if I should go out places with friends I know that cheat on their wives, I question on how close I should get with those that support legalized abortion, now I may have to ask myself how close I want to be to a Church that brazenly allows for members of it's Priesthood to assualt children, and for a Church of laity who find pews or the lack of more important to the Character of it's Church then the rape of the most innocent.

At times there are times to bow out. So I humblely do. And please I don't want anyone posting notes as to how they would wish I stay here in the Byzantine Forum or the Catholic Church for that matter. I'm not looking for peoples sympathy. Perhaps I did go to far, but as to starting the thread I don't think so. And Administrator it was wrong of me to say the stuff about effeminate leadership or whatever and to even make it sound as though you lack something for not having served in the military, that was wrong, one failing character traits is that when I get to emotional I tend to run off at the mouth.

I bow out.