www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Boston Revelation Of Clergy - State Of Emergency

Yes. As I mentioned previously this is one of the reasons the Latin Church chose to abolish the "minor orders". They had the historical baggage of a way of making laypersons "clergy" so that they were exempt from the civil courts.

K.

Of course, in the last few decades, the American Roman Catholic Church has been sued for and /or has settled out of court for "reparations" (settlements) to the tune of almost one billion dollars for its moral incompetency.

Then, for the victims and their families the issue of whether to stay or leave is also a moral issue.

Can a moral person remain a member of an institution that is as morally bankrupt as the Catholic church seems to be, especially at the highest levels of authority?

Or, does one choose for Christ and leave for His sake and the sake of the others one can also rescue from such a morally bankrupt and existentially evil institution?

Or, does one play the part of the neurotic and attempt to delude oneself into believing that there is some moral virtue in remaining part of an institution that is collectively fixated on adhering to the morality of the lowest common-denominator?

Obviously, the answer is self-evident to the true and faithful disciple of Christ.

Sonny

[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: Sonny ]

Sonny,

You very clearly state some of the issues that face victims of clerical pedophilia face. The pain and horror of their experiences cannot be denied. They should not be made light of.

There is no excuse for the behavior of the priests and religious involved. There is no way to present these events in any way that can hide revulsion for the abuse of trust.

These sick and sinful people have spread havoc with the lives of so many. They have caused severe harm to the Church which they were called to serve. I understand your reaction.

I believe, however, that there are many more priests and religious workers who have remained true to their calling. They and the great majority of the members of our Church go about the work of the Church day by day despite the waves caused by sensationalism over the sins of some. They do so knowing that there but for the Grace of God go all of us in our sinfulness.

Their work goes unreported because, simply put, it is too common, too ordinary to warrant notice by the press. For these members of the Latin Church there is another choice.

To these faithful disciples of Christ, the choice is to remain in the Body of the Suffering Servant and work to build it up. They remain and try to bind the wounds of those hurt and suffering because of the sins of others.

They create programs for those injured and their families. They look for ways to protect the youngsters who trust the Church and its people, clerical and lay. They involve civil authority when there is need. They create procedures for dealing with the perpetrators, remembering that they are members of the Body, too.

They remain to offer the Eucharist, to celebrate the Mysteries and to witness to the Truth Who cannot be hidden by the faults of His sinful servants.

They remain knowing that the seed is not always planted in fertile ground and some wheat is choked by weeds. They remain.

I hesitate to call them morally bankrupt or existentially evil. They are the Church. There is no institution without them.

I agree that the choice is obvious to the faithful servant of the Suffering Servant, Christ.

I join you in praying for all of the victims of this kind of abuse not matter to what institutions the perpetrators belong.

Steve
JOY!

Jesus said:

"Anyone who welcomes one little child like this in my name welcomes me. But anyone who is the downfall of one of these little ones who have faith in me would be better drowned in the depths of the sea with a great millstone round his neck.Alas for the world that there should be such causes of falling! Causes of falling indeed there must be, but alas for anyone who provides them."

"Suppose a man has a hundred sheep and one of them strays; will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hillside and go in search of the one?"

Some are called to leave the flock and go and search for those who have strayed, or better, were abused by the shepherd and were forced to flee the flock for the sake of mere survival. In that case, the Lord sends the "undershepherds."

Woe unto those who hear the call but do not embrace it.

Only God knows the exact boundaries of His Holy Church. This has always been the normative belief of Eastern Christianity.

May God's will, in God's love, lead us forward in the light and direct our paths in the darkness. In Him, we shall prevail.

Sonny

[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: Sonny ]

Sonny,

What are your plans? I trust they are not to leave the Church. Are you planning to move to Orthodoxy or are you thinking of, well, you know the word? It begins with A.

Dan Lauffer

When we read these accounts in the papers about priests and religious accused of these sorts of crimes (I am not talking about those convicted, only the accused) we should also keep in mind the case of Cardinal Bernadin of Chicago...his accusations and near conviction by the press...and then the accusor coming forth and saying he was wrong that it never happened. I also seem to remember someone coming forth and accusing the late Pope Paul VI of the same while he was alive. I have worked for a long time in nursing, at a psychiatric facility and some of the things I have learned about human nature are these: most of us are capable of doing just about anything, but most of us don't and that people are also quick to blame anyone but themselves for their problems and that some people will do anything for money, power and 5 minutes of fame. Some priests (and bishops for that matter) do evil things and should be stopped. But also some innocent priests are accused of doing those same things. As Catholics (or members of whatever religious denomination) we must do all we can to bring those priests who abuse their office to justice according to the law, but at the same time we must support our good clergy to keep them from being tarred with the same brush as the bad. I think most RC bishops and dioceses are trying to do just that. And no matter what some would have us believe, this is not a new problem, but has been with the Church through all ages, only now it is talked about and our well developed media makes the information readily available. I remember reading an old clipping from a Kanas City newpaper from the 1920's about a priest from western Kansas who was arrested in KC for running off with the wife of a parishioner. It happened, it happens and will happen..human nature being what it is. Stop it when it happens, do what we can to prevent it from happening again, but the best thing we can do is pray. May God help us all....the guilty and the non-guilty alike.

Don

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Don in Kansas ]

Don,

You are so right. Yez these things have happened, are happening and will happen again. Over here we are not immune either - it happens everywhere but the problem is that the few who transgress hit the headlines.

I don't know the answer - Prayer, prayer and more prayer - and perhaps a better support network for our Clergy .
Angela

Dear Angela,

"Yez these things . . ."

That's the only time I've ever known you NOT to use the Queen's English!

Are you becoming a republican ?

Et Tu, Angela?

Alex

Alex,

Aaaarggghh - its the teeny weeny size of these wretched letters as I type. I obviously missed that as I proof read

I'm grovelling to one and all - and you are most unkind to laugh at me - I'll get my own back yet[ Yeah yeah I know that'll be the day ]

Mea Culpa.

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

Sister Angela, you are always the epitome of kindness and understanding for all sorts of people with problems.

We are all sinners on the road to the Father; sometimes we fall; other times we crash heavily to the ground. But we are all redeemable, with prayer, fasting and encouragement.

BUT, for someone who has had a specific problem (sex, drugs and rock 'n roll), it is up to the person's loved ones and superiors to help them get the support they need; and also to make sure that they are not put in the way of temptation. For me, this is applicable not only to the clergy, but to all of God's children. E.g., if I have an alcoholic friend, I make sure that we go out to places where alcohol is not the primary focus, i.e., bars, clubs, etc. A friend quitting smoking? Ditto. A person with a problem with weight? No 'all you can eat' buffets or heavy-duty ice cream parlors. A person attracted to kids? No day care centers or schools or playgrounds.

We must support the person in his/her efforts to do the right thing. And it's not a Catholic, or an Orthodox, or a clergy thing. It's just a people thing.

Blessings to all! (Especially our sister Angela from the wet side of the pond!)

A? You must mean "A" for Anabaptist. You are right!

(I know what you actually mean,)

If this is apostate theology, then I must admit, I am more than overjoyed to be an apostate.

(Adopted by the Apostolic Brethren Fellowship and Community Outreach Ministries of Lake Helen on Jan.21, 2002. John Fiore, elder.)


This is the type of fellowship I believe I have been seeking since I was raped by a priest as a teenager. Just think of the good I can do for those who also are victims of clerical abuse.


I know from personal experience and from the testimony of others that neither the Catholic or Orthodox churches care about the fate of the victims---unless crocodile tears count.
In fact, PR aside, as far as the Catholic church is concerned, it is the pedophile priests who remain, in the eyes of the hierarchs, the true "victims." They don't care about us; they never have, and they never will.

You should rejoice with us that the Good and Trustworthy Shepherd has blessed us by liberating us from the evil influences of Catholicism and Orthodoxy. To us, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are just brothels. What do you expect?

Sonny


The Seven Articles of Schleitheim
Canton Schaffhausen, Switzerland,
February 24, 1527


The Schleitheim Confession

Adopted by a Swiss Brethren Conference, February 24, 1527


Brotherly Union of a Number of Children of God concerning Seven Articles
The articles which we discussed and on which we were of one mind are these:
Baptism;
The Ban (Excommunication);
Breaking of Bread;
Separation from the Abomination;
Pastors in the Church;
The Sword;
The Oath.

I. Observe concerning baptism: Baptism shall be given to all those who have learned repentance and amendment of life, and who believe truly that their sins are taken away by Christ, and to all those who walk in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and wish to be buried with Him in death, so that they may be resurrected with Him and to all those who with this significance request it (baptism) of us and demand it for themselves. This excludes all infant baptism, the highest and chief abomination of the Pope. In this you have the foundation and testimony of the apostles. Matt. 28, Mark 16, Acts 2, 8, 16, 19. This we wish to hold simply, yet firmly and with assurance.


II. We are agreed as follows on the ban: The ban shall be employed with all those who have given themselves to the Lord, to walk in His commandments, and with all those who are baptized into the one body of Christ and who are called brethren or sisters, and yet who slip sometimes and fall into error and sin, being inadvertently overtaken. The same shall be admonished twice in secret and the third time openly disciplined or banned according to the command of Christ. Matt. 18. But this shall be done according to the regulation of the Spirit (Matt. 5) before the breaking of bread, so that we may break and eat one bread, with one mind and in one love, and may drink of one cup.

III. In the breaking of bread we are of one mind and are agreed (as follows): All those who wish to break one bread in remembrance of the broken body of Christ, and all who wish to drink of one drink as a remembrance of the shed blood of Christ, shall be united beforehand by baptism in one body of Christ which is the church of God and whose Head is Christ. For as Paul points out, we cannot at the same time drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of the devil. That is, all those who have fellowship with the dead works of darkness have no part in the light. Therefore all who follow the devil and the world have no part with those who are called unto God out of the world. All who lie in evil have no part in the good.
Therefore it is and must be (thus): Whoever has not been called by one God to one faith, to one baptism, to one Spirit, to one body, with all the children of God's church, cannot be made (into) one bread with them, as indeed must be done if one is truly to break bread according to the command of Christ.

IV. We are agreed (as follows) on separation: A separation shall be made from the evil and from the wickedness which the devil planted in the world; in this manner, simply that we shall not have fellowship with them (the wicked) and not run with them in the multitude of their abominations. This is the way it is: Since all who do not walk in the obedience of faith, and have not united themselves with God so that they wish to do His will, are a great abomination before God, it is not possible for anything to grow or issue from them except abominable things. For truly all creatures are in but two classes, good and bad, believing and unbelieving, darkness and light, the world and those who (have come) out of the world, God's temple and idols, Christ and Belial; and none can have part with the other.
To us then the command of the Lord is clear when He calls upon us to be separate from the evil and thus He will be our God and we shall be His sons and daughters.
He further admonishes us to withdraw from Babylon and earthly Egypt that we may not be partakers of the pain and suffering which the Lord will bring upon them.
From this we should learn that everything which is not united with our God and Christ cannot be other than an abomination which we should shun and flee from. By this is meant all Catholic and Protestant works and church services, meetings and church attendance, drinking houses, civic affairs, the oaths sworn in unbelief and other things of that kind, which are highly regarded by the world and yet are carried on in flat contradiction to the command of God, in accordance with all the unrighteousness which is in the world. From all these things we shall be separated and have no part with them for they are nothing but an abomination, and they are the cause of our being hated before our Christ Jesus, Who has set us free from the slavery of the flesh and fitted us for the service of God through the Spirit Whom He has given us.
Therefore there will also unquestionably fall from us the unchristian, devilish weapons of force - such as sword, armor and the like, and all their use (either) for friends or against one's enemies - by virtue of the Word of Christ. Resist not (him that is) evil.

V. We are agreed as follows on pastors in the
church of God: The pastor in the church of God shall, as Paul has prescribed, be one who out-and-out has a good report of those who are outside the faith. This office shall be to read, to admonish and teach, to warn, to discipline, to ban in the church, to lead out in prayer for the advancement of all the brethren and sisters, to lift up the bread when it is to be broken, and in all things to see to the care of the body of Christ, in order that it may be built up and developed, and the mouth of the slanderer be stopped.
This one moreover shall be supported of the church which has chosen him, wherein he may be in need, so that he who serves the Gospel may live of the Gospel as the Lord has ordained. But if a pastor should do something requiring discipline, he shall not be dealt with except (on the testimony of) two or three witnesses. And when they sin they shall be disciplined before all in order that the others may fear.
But should it happen that through the cross this pastor should be banished or led to the Lord (through martyrdom) another shall be ordained in his place in the same hour so that God's little flock and people may not be destroyed.


VI. We are agreed as follows concerning the sword: The sword is ordained of God outside the perfection of Christ. It punishes and puts to death the wicked, and guards and protects the good. In the Law the sword was ordained for the punishment of the wicked and for their death, and the same (sword) is (now) ordained to be used by the worldly magistrates.
In the perfection of Christ, however, only the ban is used for a warning and for the excommunication of the one who has sinned, without putting the flesh to death - simply the warning and the command to sin no more.
Now it will be asked by many who do not recognize (this as) the will of Christ for us, whether a Christian may or should employ the sword against the wicked for the defense and protection of the good, or for the sake of love.
Our reply is unanimously as follows: Christ teaches and commands us to learn of Him, for He is meek and lowly in heart and so shall we find rest to our souls. Also Christ says to the heathenish woman who was taken in adultery, not that one should stone her according to the Law of His Father (and yet He says, As the Father has commanded me, thus I do), but in mercy and forgiveness and warning, to sin no more. Such (an attitude) we also ought to take completely according to the rule of the ban.
Secondly, it will be asked concerning the sword, whether a Christian shall pass sentence in worldly disputes and strife such as unbelievers have with one another. This is our united answer. Christ did not wish to decide or pass judgment between brother and brother in the case of the inheritance, but refused to do so. Therefore we should do likewise.
Thirdly, it will be asked concerning the sword, Shall one be a magistrate if one should be chosen as such? The answer is as follows: They wished to make Christ king, but He fled and did not view it as the arrangement of His Father. Thus shall we do as He did, and follow Him, and so shall we not walk in darkness. For He Himself says, He who wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. Also, He Himself forbids the (employment of) the force of the sword saying, The worldly princes lord it over them, etc., but not so shall it be with you. Further, Paul says, Whom God did foreknow He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, etc. Also Peter says, Christ has suffered (not ruled) and left us an example, that ye should follow His steps.
Finally it will be observed that it is not appropriate for a Christian to serve as a magistrate because of these points: The government magistracy is according to the flesh, but the Christian's is according to the Spirit; their houses and dwelling remain in this world, but the Christian's are in heaven; their citizenship is in this world, but the Christian's citizenship is in heaven; the weapons of their conflict and war are carnal and against the flesh only, but the Christian's weapons are spiritual, against the fortification of the devil. The worldlings are armed with steel and iron, but the Christians are armed with the armor of God, with truth, righteousness, peace, faith, salvation and the Word of God. In brief, as in the mind of God toward us, so shall the mind of the members of the body of Christ be through Him in all things, that there may be no schism in the body through which it would be destroyed. For every kingdom divided against itself will be destroyed. Now since Christ is as it is written of Him, His members must also be the same, that His body may remain complete and united to its own advancement and upbuilding.


VII. We are agreed as follows concerning the oath: The oath is a confirmation among those who are quarreling or making promises. In the Law it is commanded to be performed in God's Name, but only in truth, not falsely. Christ, who teaches the perfection of the Law, prohibits all swearing to His (followers), whether true or false - neither by heaven, nor by the earth, nor by Jerusalem, nor by our head - and that for the reason He shortly thereafter gives, For you are not able to make one hair white or black. So you see it is for this reason that all swearing is forbidden: we cannot fulfill that which we promise when we swear, for we cannot change (even) the very least thing on us.
Now there are some who do not give credence to the simple command of God, but object with this question: Well now, did not God swear to Abraham by Himself (since He was God) when He promised him that He would be with him and that He would be his God if he would keep His commandments, - why then should I not also swear when I promise to someone? Answer: Hear what the Scripture says: God, since He wished more abundantly to show unto the heirs the immutability of His counsel, inserted an oath, that by two immutable things (in which it is impossible for God to lie) we might have a strong consolation. Observe the meaning of this Scripture: What God forbids you to do, He has power to do, for everything is possible for Him. God swore an oath to Abraham, says the Scripture, so that He might show that His counsel is immutable. That is, no one can withstand nor thwart His will; therefore He can keep His oath. But we can do nothing, as is said above by Christ, to keep or perform (our oaths): therefore we shall not swear at all (nichts schweren).
Then others further say as follows: It is not forbidden of God to swear in the New Testament, when it is actually commanded in the Old, but it is forbidden only to swear by heaven, earth, Jerusalem and our head. Answer: Hear the Scripture, He who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by Him who sitteth thereon. Observe: it is forbidden to swear by heaven, which is only the throne of God: how much more is it forbidden (to swear) by God Himself! Ye fools and blind, which is greater, the throne or Him that sitteth thereon?
Further some say, Because evil is now (in the world, and) because man needs God for (the establishment of) the truth, so did the apostles Peter and Paul also swear. Answer: Peter and Paul only testify of that which God promised to Abraham with the oath. They themselves promise nothing, as the example indicates clearly. Testifying and swearing are two different things. For when a person swears he is in the first place promising future things, as Christ was promised to Abraham. Whom we a long time afterwards received. But when a person bears testimony he is testifying about the present, whether it is good or evil, as Simeon spoke to Mary about Christ and testified, Behold this (child) is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be spoken against.
Christ also taught us along the same line when He said, Let your communication be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. He says, Your speech or word shall be yea and nay. (However) when one does not wish to understand, he remains closed to the meaning. Christ is simply Yea and Nay, and all those who seek Him simply will understand His Word. Amen.


The Seven Articles of Schleitheim
Canton Schaffhausen, Switzerland,
February 24, 1527

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Sonny ]

Sonny,

I was afraid of that. Well, haven't we all been frustrated with the actions of some in every organization. The frustration is intensified when we read of acts of cruelty done by religious leaders. I've often been tempted just to throw up my hands and walk away from everything. I could write my own fine sounding statement of faith and as long as I was the only person in the group I would not be frustrated with anyone else but the one member of my very promising Church. But then, when I falter, what we I do? How do I run from myself?

Most, if not all groups, have fine sounding creeds and statements.

But there is one problem with them all. None of them are clearly attached to the founder. Only the Catholic/Orthodox faith is grounded in our Savior and in the one Church that He started.

I was a Protestant most of my life. I know what it means to minimized everything.

I know the appeal of these kinds of groups. I hope you don't go.

Dan Lauffer

Dan,

If you have been raped by a priest, the last thing you want to do is associate Jesus with the church he was a priest of.

Believe me, under those circumstances it would be impossible to exercise any faith in the Lord Jesus.

The same would apply to those who were abused by a Protestant minister, for example.

The best thing for all concerned is to move on and start over.

Take care! (And I am sorry you had such negative experiences as a Protestant. But, you did the right thing: you cut your strings to Protestantism and moved on. And others must do the same, but they will pass you traveling in the opposite direction. That's life.)

Sonny

BTW: It is the Holy Spirit who is the seal and assurance of our "connection" to Christ, I believe.

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Sonny ]

God bless you Sonny. May our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ always be an ever present comfort to you. You will be in my prayers.

Dan Lauffer

Sonny,

Don't let anyone drive you out of Jesus's & your Church. It yours take it back. If you can find the strength to stay you can help others like yourself and help them reclaim the Church as theirs. Every year you should be invited to the Bishop's Conference to speak on the subject. I know Christ didn't want this to happen to you but he needs you to stay to help him rid the Church of this evil scourge.

Nicky's Baba