0 members (),
2,197
guests, and
145
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,528
Posts417,656
Members6,181
|
Most Online4,112 Mar 25th, 2025
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405 |
Eleven years old in 1912. Man that's sometime ago. Talk about old school. And to enter monastic life at the age of 11. Ponder the difference in perception of the world he had at eleven to that of the perception of the world the eleven year old in 2002 urban and suburban America has? 1912 - I think people were still trained to open doors for women back then Justin
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,960
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,960 |
"1912 - I think people were still trained to open doors for women back then." I was "trained" to do such. I still do. Ladies still come first in my book! Helping put on my wife's wraps and pushing the chair in when we dine out were also part of my training. A married man should always continue treating his dear wife as his "hot date." Wisdom is the experience of not having done so. 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3 |
Originally posted by Joe T: "1912 - I think people were still trained to open doors for women back then."
I was "trained" to do such. I still do. Ladies still come first in my book! Helping put on my wife's wraps and pushing the chair in when we dine out were also part of my training. A married man should always continue treating his dear wife as his "hot date." Wisdom is the experience of not having done so. While I was in the UK last week, one prominent news story was a survey that revealed British women wanted men to be more "gallant"--opening doors, pulling out chairs, giving up seats and (the big one!) not going Dutch. It seems that the blush is off the feminist rose for a lot of women over there.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Dear Cantor Joe and Maximus, So I guess a celibate priestly vocation is not for either of you, eh? The Eritrean Church is the newest Patriarchate of the Oriental Orthodox family and the Abuna was consecrated such by Pope Shenouda not too long ago. Both Eritrean and Ethiopian Churches share the same heritage beginning with the conversion of "St Eunuchus" the Eunuch of Queen St Candace of Ethiopia by St Philip the Apostle as recounted in Acts. St Frumentius later became Ethiopia's bishop, and he is called the "Anba Salama" the Father of Peace. The Nine Syrian Saints including St Libanus converted Ethiopia and established monasteries. Ethiopian Christianity truly flowered under Emperor St Lalibela and some of the famous stone churches are in Lasta province. Abuna Takla Haymonot and Abuna Manfas Keddus are two famous monastic saints and reformers. The former saint is portrayed with six wings - when he fell off a cliff, people saw him glide down to safety as six wings appeared at his back. He prayed so much in the standing position that a leg fell off . . . Eritrea was formerly a kingdom under the Ethiopian Emperor before it separated as did its Orthodox Tewahedo Church. In every which way its liturgy and customs are identical to those of the Ethiopian Church. With the Saints give rest, O Lord, to Thy Servant and Shepherd of Thy Church! Alex
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 271
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 271 |
Besimi Ab, we Weld, we Menfis Qidus. Ahadu Amlak, Amen. I extend my deepest condolences to the Eritrean people and pray for their spiritual well being. One thousand luxo bateoch are not enough to mourn for the loss of Abuna Filipos. Alemayu, I am in agreement with what you said. I would only add that Qidus Tekle Hymanot is not only portrayed with six wings, he grew six wings. Qidus Tekle Hymanot (by the way his name means Foundation/Pillar of the faith; or Foundation/Pillar of the Religion) was the founder of the Debre Libaonos Monastery. Eritreans have a similar saint (until recently he was an Ethiopian saint but became Eritrean after their independence. He was always compared to Tekle Hymanot.) Abba Ewostatewos (1273-1352). He was from the Serae region/ethnic group in Eritrea. He is most memorable for his opposition to slavery, inequality, corrupting state influences, and his promotion of Judaic based Christian values and traditions (which he unfortunately had to assert against Alexandria). He is a saint and a hero indeed. If the Ge'ez Tabot Christianity (I don't know what other term to use that encompasses both Eritrea and Ethiopia) had Monastic Orders, etc. then Tekle Hymanot's and Ewostatewos' followers would be like Jesuits and Franciscans, etc. As is known, Tekle Hymanot's group was eventually state sponsored, whereas the group of Ewostatewos was opposed to state collaboration for a long time. To this day the Ethiopian Patriarch is called “Patriarch of Ethiopia and Echegue of the See of St Tekle Hymanot.” BTW, I found an Ethiopian Liturgy for you that is in Ge'ez, Amharic and English. I intend to mail it to you after I obtain another copy of a book on Ethiopian Orthodox Crosses (of course you can't have my personal copy  ). But tuff luck on the Book of Hours, it is just not available in English, I could not find it. However the Coptic one is identical, so the Coptic-English translation will say the same thing as ours.
Egzi'o Marinet Kristos
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
My dear Ethiopian Brother in Christ and Maryam!
You are too kind - I do not deserve your friendship and consideration!
Yes, I have an icon of Abuna Ewostatewos and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for giving me the background on him.
Just so you now, I have an Ethiopian hand cross with me as I write this and use it to sign myself in private prayer - you said it would be O.K.!
So there are no hard feelings between Eritreans and Ethiopians over the Church thing?
That is good!
St Takla Haymonot is among my favourite saints and I have a place of honour for him among my icons.
I will remunerate you for your trouble and I thank you again for your exceeding kindness toward me a sinner.
Alex
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,658
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,658 |
I once read that in Eritrea, the local orthodox Church does not have the maojority of faithful (like in Ethiopia), and that Islam (with a lot of christian influences) is the most important religion there, while the christian population is divided in Catholics, Orthodox, and neo-protestant sects. In Eritrea, Eastern Rite catholics are more numerous than in Ethiopia according to some statistics. Do you know about the status and life of the G'eez catholic Church there?
Pope Shenouda consacrates the Patriarchs of both Ethiopia and Eritrea, so what is the status of these churches? Are tgey still part of the Alexandrian patriarchate? If I'm not mistaken, the Ethiopians rejected the monophisite heresy because it was not according to St Frumentius teachings, but when did they finally adopted that christology?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373 |
Whoa, these sister churches treat each other with respect! Alex, could we ever in our lifetime expext the Moscow Patriarchial Church ever to act as kindly and grant a seperate Patriarchate in Kyiv for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church? I doubt that will ever happen, unfortunately. Ung-Certez 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Dear Remie, From what I know, the Ethiopian and Eritrean Churches are fully independent, Autocephalous Oriental Orthodox Churches that are descended from the Coptic Church. They are therefore not part of the Patriarchate of Alexandria, but look on him as on a Father-First among Equals within the Alexandrian tradition, although the Coptic Pope does not involve himself with internal Church affairs governing the two other Patriarchates. (I don't know anything about the statistics you mention.) The Ethiopian Orthodox Church does call itself "Tewahedo" which means "One Nature." Whether or not it is "Monophysite" depends on what we mean by that term. We know that it does NOT mean that the One Christ is only God and not Man as well. God in His Divine Nature only could not have been crucified. "Physis" as we have come to realize has also meant "Person" as enunciated by the Alexandrian school, especially by St Cyril. And so, as the theologians from both sides have agreed, there is no longer any real theological issue on Christology between these two families of Orthodox Churches of the East. The Georgian Church was formerly Oriental Orthodox, but then entered the Chalcedonian Orthodox family. The Armenians have remained pre-Chalcedonian Orthodox for the most part, but, at one point, had doubts about receiving St Severus of Antioch into their calendar - I guess it was all that Byzantine talk of "headlessness"  . Ethiopia has the fullest possible measure of ancient Judaism within its Christian liturgical tradition and heritage, but it has always been within the Oriental Orthodox Christological tradition. Personally, I think that "Monophysite" should be discarded by other Orthodox and Catholic Churches as it does great injustice to the Cyrillian Oriental Churches - "Miaphysite" is better, but "Oriental Orthodox" or "Pre-Chalcedonia" are best. Alex
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 66
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 66 |
Originally posted by Remie: Pope Shenouda consacrates the Patriarchs of both Ethiopia and Eritrea, so what is the status of these churches? Are tgey still part of the Alexandrian patriarchate? If I'm not mistaken, the Ethiopians rejected the monophisite heresy because it was not according to St Frumentius teachings, but when did they finally adopted that christology? Pope Shenouda had to consecrate him and put on him the holy Eskeem (so that he in turn could ordain those under him). The Eritrean and Ethiopian Orthodox church (Aklie can correct me if I am wrong) function totally independently of each other and of Alexandria, but give the place of honour to the Pope of Alexandria as being "First among equals" in the Oriental Orthodox family. None of the Ethiopian, Eritrean, or Coptic churches have ever adhered to the heresy of monophysitism, nor will you find any writings by any of these churches that express monophysitism. If you but read the minutes of the Council of Chalcedon, you will see that Pope Dioscorus who stood completely alone, expressed the faith correctly, but what really separated the two churches is politics and pride. To call the Oriental Orthodox churches monophysite is as equally valid as us calling the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholics Nestorian. Peace and grace!
Peace and grace. Agape, Fortunatus Amen, maranatha!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Dear Minas, Yes, and that was exactly the case way back when. When the Western Churches, Rome and Byzantium, were calling the Oriental Churches "Monophysite," the Oriental Churches considered Rome and Byzantium (especially St Flavian of Constantinople) to be espousing Nestorianism. This came to a head when Nestorius, in exile somewhere in northern Africa, said that his theology paralleled that expressed by St Flavian! The so-called "rehabilitation" of Nestorius is based on this. Certainly, even Byzantine theologians sometimes saw in later Latin devotions to the Humanity of Christ - the Sacred Heart, for example - something that smacked of Nestorianism. But today there is no reason for us to be separated on the score of Christology - there is no difference between us, only different terminological emphases. There are certainly some ritual/liturgical differences, but these existed even when the Church was undivided e.g. the Trisagion as a prayer to Christ, not to the Trinity etc. When I pray the Agpeya, I see the very best of what the Byzantine tradition has to offer - and then some! Alex
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 271
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 271 |
I am in total agreement with Alex and A Copt, they both correctly stated how we view the Pope of Alexandria in general. The current Pope in particular is very much respected and adored because he is so wise. I try to read either a sermon, an essay, or if I am lucky a book by him at least once a week.
The religious statistics of Eritrea are always uncertain, but Ge'ez does play a significant role in the Liturgy of the Eritrean and Ethiopian Catholic Churches. In fact, the liturgy is exactly the Orthodox one. Ethiopian (Northern Ethiopian) Catholics call themselves “Orthodox in Communion with Rome.” They have rejected both Latinization as well, as what the say is, “Ethiopianization of what is fundamentally not Ethiopian”, they just follow the Orthodox traditions with a few modifications (i.e. the number of Priest required for Mass, etc.) This is also the case with Eritrea.
Alex, Tewehedo is not really translated as “One Nature” it is more or less translated as unity or the union of two natures. It is Ge'ez and not Amharic so I will not pretend to be an expert, but that is what I was taught.
As far as the “Monophysite” accusation, I think that this was dealt with by Mor Ephrem, Alex, and A Copt in this and other threads. It is a waste of time to keep responding to accusations that have no basis in fact.
As far as the Ecumenical Councils, I plan to start a thread on the history of those councils in the near future when I am not so busy with this archaeology stuff…
Alex I will respond to your earlier comment (plus that of Administrator on another thread) when I wake up, as is obvious I did not go to sleep last night (working on these papers).
Egzi'o Marinet Kristos
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Selam Aklie!
Have a good night's rest!
Yes, I was using the common translation of "Tewahedo" that Westerners say means "Monophysite . . ."
Even Eutyches, who gets the formal blame by all for the heresy of Eutychianism or monophysism, before he died, affirmed that Our Lord was consubstantial with His Mother - he couldn't bring himself to say "with us" owing to our sinfulness.
Greek theologians then and now said that if he said that - then he was not a heretic.
Alex
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,688
Moderator Member
|
Moderator Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,688 |
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
... Both Eritrean and Ethiopian Churches share the same heritage beginning with the conversion of "St Eunuchus" the Eunuch of Queen St Candace of Ethiopia by St Philip the Apostle as recounted in Acts...
Alex Alex, It was St Phillip the Deacon who instructed Queen Candace's eunuch. But you're in good company, even Eusebius confused the two. (Subdeacon) John
|
|
|
|
|