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Actually ALL Eastern Catholic Churches are forbidden from evangelizing outside of their "territories."

Here in the States it is a special case, but still and all we are mostly forbidden to evangelize.

Is there any documentation for this from current texts?

Dear Yuhannon:

Ok, let's take the U.S. as an example.

The USCCB has a 7-member "Committee on Evagelization" currently chaired by the Most Reverend Edward J. Slattery, Bishop of Tulsa. Representing the Eastern Catholic Churches for 2002-2005 is the Most Reverend Nicholas J. Samra, Greek-Melkite Auxiliary Bishop of Newton.

The Committee grants additonal funding to all dioceses/eparchies for their evangelization efforts.

The "Secretariat for Evangelization" runs the day-to-day operations of the Committee. For the details on the Committee's activities, please refer to:

http://www.usccb.org/evangelization/

The Committee coordinates evagelization activities of the Catholic Church, East and West, in the U.S.

I am fairly certain that the national Episcopal Conferences of all countries worldwide, like Taiwan, have the same or similar set-up, i.e., Eastern Catholic Churches must join with the Latins in a coordinated evangelization program. The "Chinese Regional Bishops Conference in Taiwan" is on-line but, unfortunately, I cannot read Chinese characters.

We, East and West, are on this together!

Amado

Shlomo Amadeus,

As I stated the United States is a special case. As I pointed out, we under canon law can not go outside of our territory. As you may note. Only the Pope may permit Patriarchal Authority, as well as any Eastern Catholic Church, to organize outside of its traditional territory. Our Eparch in the West are still considered part of the Western Patriarchate even though they vote in their respective Holy Synods.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Yuhannon, convert all the people you are able to convert. Even if it were prohibited - which I am pretty sure it is not in this country - it's easier to get forgiveness than permission.

Dear Yuhannon:

I think we are misunderstanding each other.

In areas outside their traditional boundaries, Eastern Catholic Churches are asked/required to team up with the Latin Church in evangelization efforts for coordination, funding, and strategic planning.

(Eparchs of ECCs are already required to be members of the Episcopal Conference of Catholic Bishops in a given country or region. And this is universally true given the fact that the Latin Church is the majority in almost every nation.)

Your particular Church can do her own thing, as Charles suggested, but I believe it would be more beneficial to all concerned if there exists a coordinated effort singularly directed at evangelization.

Amado

Dear Incognitus,
Thank you for the response. I�d like to point out that I did write that I hope the Coptic and Ethiopian Catholic Churches grow. I also think its a great injustice if they're being prevented from doing so.

What bothers me is that I was getting the impression that the Catholic Church in Africa is being seen as somehow less than African because it is Catholic. I think that is unfair to Catholic Africans.

I wanted to point out that Catholic roots on the continent go deep even if at one point they were cut off at the stem. Weren�t many liturgical traditions in their infancy in St. Augustine�s day anyway? I know it has its faults but the old Catholic Encyclopedia says the following of the African liturgy:

Rest of the article here: the African Liturgy [newadvent.org]

The article claims the African Church was always devoted to the See of Peter and goes on to describe the liturgy. Elsewhere in the Encyclopedia Adrian Fortescue puts it into the Roman branch of what he calls the four great liturgies from which all others are derived (Alexandria, Antioch, Gallican Rite, Rome).

It seems that they were the first to introduce Latin into the liturgy. You might even say that the Latin Mass is an �africanization�. So that church really was �Latin� or �Roman�, at least according to this source.

I don't think this church's disappearance at one point takes its legacy away from our Latin tradition. I mean its not like people in the Latin church have stopped reading St. Augustine, or St. Cyprian of Carthage, or naming their daughters Felicitas (like a classmate of mine). Or commemorating those saints in the Eucharistic Prayer of the Mass or on the liturgical calendar. The African Liturgy article says that �many of the versicles quoted in the writings of the time may be now found in the present Roman liturgy.� (1907). Africa already gave us three Popes (Saint Victor, Saint Gelasius, Saint Miliades) [nbccongress.org] and it might give us a fourth A Latin Catholic in Nigeria, or Uganda, or Tanzania shares in that inheritance too.

If nowadays we don�t think of St. Monica as an African maybe that says something about us?

In another Encyclopedia article [newadvent.org] on Africa the writer states: In Sub-saharan Africa Latin rite missionaries arrived as early as the end of the 15th century, following the Portuguese explorers. Bishoprics were founded in San Salvador in 1498 and Mozambique in 1614. Augustinians founded communities at Zanzibar, Mombasa, and Pat�. This is as early as their arrival in the New World.

These missions weren�t immune either from similar forces that have plagued the Eastern Churches, like politics, war, etc. Think of the suppression of the Jesuits, for instance.

In more recent history we have great examples of faith like St. Charles Lwanga [catholic-forum.com] and Companions in Uganda [nbccongress.org] , or St. Josephine Bakhita [nbccongress.org] from Sudan.

I just think that if Eastern Catholics are being prevented from evangelization then that�s a terrible injustice and it must be fixed but I don�t believe the Catholic church as a whole, or the Latin church in particular, is a stranger in Africa.

Shlomo Amadeus,

No I am not talking past you, you are not understanding what I am saying. Eastern Catholics are NOT PERMITTED to evangelize in countries were they do not have a presence. Therefore, we CANNOT evangelize in Nigeria, Mali, Guatamala, Taiwan, Japan, etc.

Read canons 584-594 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Chuches.

Because of the wording of the Canons Rome has never permitted us to go into "Missionary Territory."

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Manuel's lengthy post will require a longer commentary than I can write at the moment; I'll try to get to it later today. Meanwhile, a few points:

The quote from an eleventh-century Pope about the 4 bishoprics in north-west Africa only proves my point - he seems to have regarded the Copts and the Ethiopians as less than Christian!

Yes, the African Liturgy had strong influence on the Gallican Liturgy (the Mozarabic Liturgy is a branch of the Gallican Liturgy, but don't tell them that in Rome). Where, pray, must one go nowadays to attend the Gallican Liturgy? And how many people have the means to go to Toledo and seek out the Mozarabic chapel at the early hour when the Liturgy is celebrated there?

I'm delighted to read that the earlier historical presence of a specific Local Church in a given place creates a claim which cannot be expunged by later historical developments. Now please tell me just who - according to such luminaries as the Papal Nuncio and the Latin Vicar Apostolic - is the authentic indigenous Catholic Church in Constantinople?

Yuhannon's complaint is particularly well taken - there appears to be nowhere on the face of the earth which is available for Maronite missionary endeavour. As is only too well known, the "Latin" missions in India would collapse were it not for the Syro-Malabarese priests and religious serving those missions - but they must do so according to the Roman Liturgy. Very recently, the Syro-Malabarese have been allowed a small number of missions of their own, after they applied tremendous pressure. If the Syro-Malankarese Catholic Church has any missions at all, I am not yet aware of it.

I have not said that the Roman Catholic Church is a stranger in Africa. I have said that the Roman Catholic Church is not indigenous to Africa. It is strange, to put it mildly, that the two indigenous Churches are restricted, while the Roman Catholic Church is free to evangelize throughout the continent (and the whole world, for that matter).


Incognitus

Dear Incognitus,
the last thing I want to do is give the impression that I think the Copts and Ethiopians are less than Christian!

And I think I've stated very plainly that if Eastern Catholics are being kept from evangelization efforts then I believe it's an injustice that needs to be fixed.

I'm also pretty sure that I'm in way over my head and that you will poke plenty of holes in my argument. Because I know you can. I readily acknowledge that your expertise in this area (and others) is much, much, much greater than mine. I really don't feel like getting into a debate online. I'm sure I'll lose it anyway, if I haven't already.

It just seems as if the missionary work of the Latin church in Africa is being dismissed too easily and that the vitality of the Catholic Church in Africa is somehow false all because of injustices that have been committed. As if the amazing growth in Africa is merely do to with quirks of history, the vagaries of politics and on the backs of Syro-Malabarese missionaries. As if the hard labor of the "White Fathers" and others, and the amazing growth in native vocations can be ignored. As if 140 million people can be shrugged off. That can't be it.

Forgive me the length of my previous and present posts but I just wanted to show that the ties between Africa and Rome were real and not new. Yes they were cut off but then they were remade during the age of exploration at the same time that the church arrived in the Americas. They've continued since then.

I don't think this takes anything away from the ancient churches of Egypt and Ethiopia.

The church in North-west Africa may have lasted only a few centuries but it was a part of the Western Church and it made an impact however small. It's not about searching out the Mozarabic Mass in Toledo.

Okay, so you're average joe catholic is clueless about most of this but maybe its enough that he'll hear the names Felicity and Perpetua during the Roman Cannon (if the priest chooses to us it :rolleyes: ) and that some Augustine guy wrote some book that's, like, this great autiobiography or something or other. And that he will hear funny latin things like "dominus vobiscum" on EWTN masses.

It seems to me that St. Augustine, from ancient Tunisia, is not that much more foreign than the Coptic saints, from Egypt, to the average person in Zambia, Tanzania, Zaire, or South Africa.

African-American Catholics in the U.S. seem happy to claim both Tunisia and Egypt as part of their heritage. See the link at the National Black Congress website here [nbccongress.org] .

I believe that the inculturation of the Catholic church in Africa offsets any foreign aspect to the Latin rite. From the first article Randy posted:
I think this is part of what Amado has been trying to get at, that it's a good thing, that it's been a lot of work and despite the injustices the Western Church deserves some credit. There is always room for more laborers in the vinyard and if something is keeping you from joining then, gosh, there must be something we can do about it.

Please forgive the length of my posts and my ranting and exaggerated arguments. Please forgive any offenses and mistakes I've made. But to make an analogy, the news from Africa is like a great banquet. The food is wonderful but people are complaining about one the cooks. I say, enjoy the food! And go ahead. Help out in the kitchen.

Shlomo Manuel,
No Eastern Catholic is dismissing the work of Latin Missionaries, what we are saying is that if we are fully Catholic Churches also, then we should be able to evagelize any where in the world.

You talk of the 140 million that the White Fathers got, but what kind of growth would we have had if the Copts and the Ethiopians had been able to preach? How big an inroad would have Islam made, if NATIVE Traditions had been able to grow? How much hypocracy would have been avoided, if these people had the option of choosing the Tradition they wish to follow, and therefore determining clerical status concerning marriage?

You see for us the Cogragation For Eastern Chuches is like the old British Colonial Office. As a matter of fact as a joke many of us who do receive missives from it call it the Colonial Office. What we want is equality; we want to be under the TOTAL authority of our Patriarchs and Holy Synods.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Dear Yuhannon - you may yet compel me to change my sterotyped thinking about the Maronites! In any case, there is little point in trying to engage with Manuel, who seems to take the view that his own lack of information becomes a virtue because he admits that lack but maintains that he is correct anyway. Sorry to be harsh, but the facts are as you and I have been presenting them.

O Khristos en meso imon!

Incognitus

I suppose I've made a fool of myself then.
I'll shut up now.

Shlomo Manuel waAmadeus,

Neither one of you need to shut up, but do take seriously, when we do talk about how we Easterners are treated by the Western Church.

I have never ment to take away the victories of the Western Church, but to point out the limitation that we in the Eastern Catholic Churches face. We too, would like to have such victories. We too, look to spread the faith as we see it so that all the Catholic Churches can take on their universal rolls.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

Greetings all,
It certainly would have been nice if the Latin missionaries had respected the original Patriarchal territories and worked with the hierarchies and liturgical/spiritual traditions of those churches.

The problem is especially obvious in India, which should be largely following the liturgical/spiritual traditions of the Church of the East.

Just as we have Syro-Malabarese missionaries �borrowed� by the Latin church for mission work in Africa (and in the USA as well), the Patriarchates ideally could have �borrowed� Latin missionaries who wanted to work in Africa and Asia. These missionaries could have been given faculties in other liturgical traditions and planted/strengthened churches in those areas. As an example, I believe that this has happened to a limited extent in Egypt where western missionaries used the Coptic liturgical rite and reopened some closed Coptic temples in upper Egypt.

The problem is that when all of this vigorous missionary activity got under way (post Reformation) the schism was in full force and the eastern Catholic church fragments were treated like captured alien territory, not as fully equal and respected churches in the communion. The Patriarchal concept was all but dead in the Catholic church by that time.

+T+
Michael

Paz Yuhannon,
please believe me when I write that I do take seriously the concerns of Eastern Catholics and I do think you should be able to spread the Gospel freely.
I apoligize to Incognitus and ask for his forgiveness.

Here is a description of a Zairean Rite Mass:

Zairean Rite Mass in Denver [archden.org]