www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Relationship

What is the current relationship between the various Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Do the faithful of both churches work together and pray together. I'm asking because I love to go to both churches. And enjoy the common spirituality among all Eastern Christians.

I understand that...

... among Byzantine Christian Arabs in the Middle East they're so close that among the laity they're the same church really. Families identify as one or the other - Melkite or Orthodox - but they intermarry, intercommune and have their children baptised at each other's churches. The only division is the clergy don't officiate in each other's churches.

The rest of the world is a different story.

In Eastern Europe outside of Greece (the world's biggest Eastern Catholic church is the Ukrainian) the Communists' outlawing the Eastern Catholic churches and forcing them to merge with the Orthodox poisoned relations for the foreseeable future.

In Greece the Greek Rite Catholic Church was a project of French missionaries about 100 years ago to convert the Orthodox that failed. It's tiny and very restricted. (Actually there are more Roman Rite Catholics in Greece, on islands that used to Italian-owned, than them.) For example it's against the law for their priests to wear the street clothes of the Orthodox clergy. I'm sure many Greeks have never heard of them.

Likewise in Russia and the Ukraine outside of Galicia the numbers of Greek Catholics are microscopic: a few 1890s intelligentsia read their way into converting and so the Pope in the early 1900s set up a Russian Greek Catholic Church to try to get more on board but the Soviets crushed it and it never was that big anyway. (The Communists especially hated the Greek Catholics because they couldn't subvert a foreign-controlled church.) There are a few self-converted ones today. Again there are far more Roman Rite Catholics there than Greek Rite ones, and part of the reason the Russian Greek Catholic Church isn't aggressively promoted is the local Roman Rite authorities, obeying Rome on this, don't want to antagonise the local Orthodox.

As for America, your own home in eastern Pennsylvania has examples nearly everywhere. After two big departures from them for the Orthodox, really because of local mistreatment by the resident Irish Roman Rite clergy, in the early 1900s, the Slav born Greek Catholics have wanted nothing to do with the Orthodox and have continued to self-latinise with that goal in mind. (The only ones I've met in 17 years of doing Slavonic Greek Rite stuff, and 25 years of following it, who want anything to do with the Orthodox are a few relatively younger priests.) It can vary a lot by family, parish and town... some places have families on both sides and enough time has passed, at least 75 years, that relations are cordial; in others the wounds are still there.

Your mileage will vary. In some places the relationship is quite warm and there are shared activities (though not sacraments). In others the relationship is civil and respectful but there is little interaction. And in still other places (not generally in N. America) relations are chilly or openly hostile.

Although some ecumenical prayer services occur these are still more on the rare side. And of course inter-communion is not sanctioned. That said in some parts of the Church under the Holy Synod of Antioch in Lebanon and Syria there has been some semi-official nodding and winking at inter-communion mostly based on cultural circumstances. But this is not normative in the broader Orthodox world and is officially prohibited.

In ICXC
John

I can think of possible hypothetical scenarios in America, in most of which friendly, legitimate ecumenism allowed by both sides just ain't gonna happen.

Imagine one on each side:

The parish of old Slav Greek Catholics who may even remember the Chornock split of the 1930s and so self-latinise all over the place to show they're not Orthodox.

The same place but livened up by an influx of good conservative Roman Riters fleeing the liberal wackiness of their old parish.

The Slav Orthodox parish with a history of a 1900 or 1930s split, possibly even the town's original Greek Catholic parish, possibly won by the Orthodox side in court.

The ethnic Greek or Russian (as in originally from Russia) parish happily serving its local constituency with no animosity towards anyone else although the Russian place may officially oppose ecumenical gestures; in any event the people don't really see a need for them.

The new whitebread convert Orthodox parish in town full of ex-Protestants as anti-Roman Catholic as they were before.

Locally among the Slav laity 'civil and respectful but there is little interaction' has been my observation. The split resulting in one parish on each side was nearly 100 years ago, not in anybody's living memory.

All of those people are dead. Also, blood has proven thicker than water in many cases, which, I guess, would explain all those Ukrainian Greek Catholics attending Ukrainian Orthodox churches--and vice versa, as well as all those Ruthenians in Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox churches--and vice versa. I might point out also that some ROCOR parishes are surprisingly open to Greek Catholics, and that a lot of Greek Catholic college kids are hanging out with the Orthodox Christian Fellowships on campus.

Everybody in my scenarios or people who lived through the later split? Most of the survivors were children when it happened but there are still a few 90-year-olds around.

Never met them. The closest was a Ruthenian-born woman who grew up in Poland in the 1930s - 'we were all Greek Catholic' - but doxed after she came to America.

Well, that's wonderful of those parishes; of course all should be welcome. But in my experience the only Greek Catholics who will set foot in those places are the relatively young: of recent convert stock (the 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' and their externally similar brethren the good Catholics who try to obey the Pope both on being Eastern and being ecumenical) and/or have been to seminary. Most young Greek Catholics of my acquaintance were swallowed up by the modern Roman Rite in some cases starting at university.

It can be more complicated. I remember a particular occasion in an upstate NY town when, as it happened, both the Greek-Catholic parish and the OCA parish were expecting each a new priest on the same day.

The Greek-Catholic priest arrived, looking as if he was straight out of Jordanville. The OCA priest arrived, looking as if he was straight out of Catholic University!

I'm also aware of several Orthodox parishes where the parishioners think that only Catholics have the Liturgy of Pre-sanctified Gifts.

Shall I go on?

Fr. Serge

I believe it, Father. I'd bet a few rubles the Greek Catholic priest was on the younger side. Lots of OCA priests, particularly older ones, look like RC priests but that doesn't necessarily mean there's much if any contact between them and the local Greek Catholics. You see the same generational divide in OCA priests: younger ones look like Jordanville; older ones look like the local RC ones. (Older American Greek Orthodox priests in street garb look like Anglican ones.)

I don't see how one can claim that no self-respecting, old-line Greek Catholic will step foot in an Orthodox church, considering how many take themselves off to the ACROD parish in Manassas every other Sunday, rather than attending Liturgy at Epiphany. And then there was that uncomfortable admission by Metropolitan Nicholas that there are thousands of Greek Catholics in his churches every Sunday--and that he was not placing any guards over the Chalice to keep them away. I also know for a fact that in Ukrainian Churches you will find lots of Catholics on the Orthodox side and Orthodox on the Catholic side. When families are divided down the middle, jurisdictional disputes take a back seat.

And it has been more than seventy years since the Chernock schism. Like the Schleswig-Holstein Crisis, nobody is left who remembers what it was about, and with the grandkids asking questions like, "Why don't we ever invite Uncle Stosh over for Pascha?", more and more divided families have decided enough is enough.

As to why so many young Greek Catholics get swallowed up by the Latin Church when they go off to college, the answer is simple: the Greek Catholic Churches, have, for the most part, just abandoned them without any form of support once they go out the doors of the parish into the wide world. There is no Greek Catholic analogue to Orthodox Christian Fellowship, and you typical Newman Society doesn't know Greek Catholic from Greek. And, with too many Greek Catholic clerics swallowing the "Catholic is Catholic" line, and insisting that there is a need to "fulfill one's obligation" in a Catholic church--any Catholic church--it's not surprising that only those kids who leave for college already committed to the Tradition of the Eastern Churches, find ways to grow in their faith while away at school. Some are lucky to find Eastern Catholic Churches in their neck of the woods. More get drawn into the ECF circle, because, for some strange reason, the Orthodox seem to take the job of providing pastoral guidance for college students seriously, and assign dedicated, dynamic people to the job, who in turn translate their enthusiasm to their young charges.

Gee. Investing in the future of the Church--what a great idea. Of course, that requires support from bishops and priests who think their Church has a future. Too many are already acting like receivers for a company entering Chapter 7 bankruptcy.

And finally, as Metropolitan Jonah recently pointed out, wearing a beard and a ponytail, going around decked out like an Athonite monk, and taking the ordination name of an obscure fourth century stylite does not make one a superior priest to someone who shaves, wears trousers and a jacket when he goes out, and still uses his baptismal name. I know they were not having such things in 19th century Russia, and is outrage! But, still. . .

AFAIK the situation in Manassas is nothing to do with ecumenism or identifying with the Orthodox and everything to do with liking their old parish priest.

Thousands? Sorry but again I just don't see the Arab Christian situation among American eastern Slavs.

Your second response amplifies the other point that young born Greek Catholics, except one or two from convert families, don't identify with the Orthodox. They move away, get married and the next generation is modern Roman Rite.

Of course born Orthodox have very similar attrition, lots of it, only without the added RC pressure.

I'm surprised that Serge has not met any. I see numerous Greek Catholics who attend Orthodox parishes especially when there are no Greek Catholic parishes nearby (and vice versa). Maybe this is because Serge lives in an area with plenty of parishes of all types? I remember not too many years ago on "Picnic Sunday" some people approached the pastor at the end of the DL with "Greetings from St. Nicholas!" He assumed his home parish in New Jersey and started asking them questions. They interrupted with "No! We're from St. Nicholas Cathedral in DC!" That's very common in my experience. I regularly attend Vigil at a ROCOR Cathedral and occasionally at the OCA Cathedral (and elsewhere). I regularly see Greek Catholics. Not hoards of them (we no longer exist in hoards!). But enough considering the small numbers of us Greek Catholics.

Long gone--in fact, he was two priests ago. Today, he's tending two parishes somewhere in the wilderness of Pennsylvania. I suspect he was moved because Metropolitan Judson dropped a line in the ear of Metropolitan Nicholas about that. But the people still go there. Maybe because they want a chance to sing the old songs?


Metropolitan Nicholas's words, not mine. I can see it, though. There is a lot of intermarriage, and people either go to their spouse's church, or they alternate between the two.

To paraphrase Vladyka Vsevolod of Scopelos, who also commented on the phenomenon, "There are thousands of Orthodox attending Greek Catholic churches in this country, and thousands of Greek Catholics in Orthodox churches. They spend years, even decades there. They make no attempt to hide who they are. They never change their affiliation. They receive the sacraments there, baptize their children there, and often are buried there."

It's just a fact of life, yet one that annoys a lot of people.


Well, Metropolitan Kallistos has written that the time is coming when nobody will be an Orthodox Christian who does not willing choose to be one. In other words, ethnicity is no longer enough, because Orthodoxy is too countercultural and inconvenient to stand against the melting pot.

So, take care when you run down converts and the young. As the song says, "Tomorrow Belongs to Me".

I think that it may be best if the Eastern Catholic clergy would start developing better relationships with the Eastern Orthodox clergy, for the sake of sharing their common spirituality. The problem is that when Eastern Catholic clergy spend more time talking and associating more with Roman Rite Catholic clergy, their eastern habits begin to get replaced by western habits. I just went to a Ukrainian Catholic Church this weekend. and the pastor talked about Roman Catholic customs, there was no incense used, no choir, no altar boys. What's up with this picture. Eastern Catholics MUST return to all Byzantine customs, and not include any form of western piety (Rosary for one), or watering down of the Divine Liturgy. Replace the Rosary, with the Jesus Prayer and prayer rope!. Use incense all the time!. If the Orthodox can do it, than the Eastern Catholics can do it. The Roman Rite has it's own liturgical and faith problems, we don't need those same problems coming over to the Byzantine Catholic church.