www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions?

I don't think it's necessary to bring in other liturgical issues into this thread.

Is there any defense to maintaining this latinization?

On the contrary, it is necessary to look at the entire liturgical life of the Ruthenian Church, for the use of pre-cut particles is but a symptom of the underlying disease.


None whatsoever. But you cannot enforce any mandate against it unless the clergy involved, from the Metropolitan on down are all convinced of the necessity of changing present practice. Saint Pragmatica and Our Lady of Perpetual Convenience have many devoted followers.

I understand your position, Stuart. However, this is something that does not have to be connected to other issues. But, as you say, it'll require that our leaders want it to change.

For one thing, the correct liturgical usage needs to be part of our catechesis. I noticed that Fr Petras' new commentary on the Divine Liturgy says very little about the Proskomedia service.

Perhaps our Church could begin with some catechesis on this?

I would disagree. I don't think it has to wait for a perfect moment. Nor does it have to be connected to other concerns.

I'll put it to you this way: a hierarchy that is willing to gut (or at least tolerate the gutting of) the Divine Liturgy is not likely to have any qualms about using pre-cut particles. Their liturgical consciousness is so defective that change will have to begin with catechesis of our own priests and bishops.

Hegumen Nicholas of Holy Resurrection Monastery put his finger on the problem as far back as 2001. At the time, I did not understand what he meant; today I understand all too well.

My concern on this is that I don't think this needs to be made part of the complaints about the RDL by some. This predates the RDL and exists in other Byzantine Catholic Churches, most notably the Ukrainian Catholic Church. It's not connected to the RDL in any way.

Connecting it to the RDL issues only makes it likely it will never be changed. The RDL is not the focus of my query about the restoration of the authentic practice and I hope this thread does not get hijacked into discussing the RDL.

OK, let's stay on the topic of prosphora here. For RDL issues there is a forum section dedicated exclusively to discuss those issues there, including a thread concerning this issue that is more broadly approached. I will not be making any more time consuming thread separations because of off-topic discussions. If this topic continues to drift off from the OP, I will just simply close it.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Thank you, Father.

I'm just wondering if Melkite and Ukrainian Catholic participants of this Forum could comment on the state of restoration of prosphora traditions in their respective Churches?

My last word on the subject; People who don't care about the big things are most unlikely to show any interest in the small things.

Dave-

I'm not necessarily defending the practice of pre-cuts, but..

Baking prosphora is an art. Some bakers (myself included) have yet to rise to the level of artists. On more than one occasion Father has cut into the bread only to discover raw dough in the center. I guess Father is rightly concerned about what is placed in the Chalice is Bread and not raw dough.

I understand the concern. But, certainly that shouldn't be a reason for not returning removing the latinization, should it?

How are issues of problems of baking dealt with in Orthodox parishes (or those Byzantine parishes which have restored the tradition)? Perhaps some other forum members have experiences to share?

Melkites apparently love baking prosphora, because a person offering a Divine Liturgy for the living or the deceased usually donates the prosphora used in that Liturgy. If the Liturgy is offered in the name of several different people, then multiple prosphorae might be used.

In contrast to the Ruthenians, the Melkites do offer Antidoron, consisting of the donated prosphorae not consecrated during the Liturgy. Our parish has held prosphora baking classes, and I have seen similar classes offered on the web sites of other Melkite parishes.

I do not think they use pre-cut particles at Holy Transfiguration; the full Proskomide is performed during Orthros, which immediately precedes the Divine Liturgy.

Greetings from Florida.
It has been a while, but I feel compelled to write about this thread -- I have some questions...
Will we make exceptions, for example, to the Pilgrimage (Otpust ) in Uniontown, where thousands of faithful attend the Liturgies and receive Communion ?
Or, perhaps, can we make an exception at the parish where the elderly pastor with arthritis, and no deacon, still has the ability to celebrate the Divine Liturgy for his parishioners ?
Are we missing the point here alltogether ? We celebrate the Liturgy to commemorate the sacrifice of Christ for us. We believe that the consecrated bread and wine are the body and blood of our Savior.
A few weeks ago, we had no pastor for a Sunday -- I attended a Latin Rite parish, and received Holy Communion there. Because it was a host, and not prosphora, freshly sliced at the Liturgy, does that make it any less the Body of Christ ?
If we get caught up in the little arguments, do we lose track of the reality of our Christianity ? It does not matter who prepares the prosphora, or when, as long as it is consecrated, and because of the actions and words of the priest, it becomes our spiritual meal, uniting us to our Savior.
Pilgrim Cantor

Thanks, Pilgrimcantor, for these thoughts.

Nothing I've said was meant to denigrade the Holy Eucharist that is in our Churches.

Certainly, you've brought up some valid questions. I'd be interested in the experiences from our Orthodox brethren on this. How are these situations handled?

Having said that, are we not called to return to our authentic traditions? Why not restore the beauty of our own tradition?