www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Lutherans may split over gay bishops

ALLEN:

Christ is in our midst!!

Sometimes the circumstances of a man's life are not that simple. There are those who may look up to Thomas the Seeker; sometimes family is the situation; sometimes there are things like great distance and that distance is not always linear. Sometimes a man is called to live a white martyrdom where he is planted and struggle to be an example to those around him as long as the Good Lord gives him breath. Sometimes one must simply stay where one is, struggle to remain faithful, and cry one's tears inside where only the Good Lord can see and comfort.

In Christ,

BOB

To use Luther's catechetical phrase, "this is most certainly true".

And this really complicates what might happen next among the tradionalist Lutherans, as they are of two camps; one, a midwestern, low-church, suspicion-of-hierarchy group who are very well organized and who have created the 200 plus congregation "Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Chirst" (LCMC); the other are mostly east-coast self described "evangelical catholics" who have a high view of the episcopacy and magisterium, and who, because of that respect, have not been willing to take what could be perceived as a sectarian action.

In other words, the EC's catholicity was such that they were not really willing to face the inevitable, which was thrust upon them last week. They held to a hope that the authority of Scripture and adherence to the Lutheran Confessions (Book of Concord) would prevail and so were unwilling to plan for "what next?"

Now, when the larger organization has chosen to become sectarian by thumbing its nose at global Christianity and the great Tradition, are those who break sectarians or the genuine catholics? From that question it should be clear with which camp I identify myself.

Thomas the Seeker,

There is a local Lutheran pastor that I respect very much, Dr. Laurence L. White at http://www.osl.cc .

I know him well enough that I know where he falls on the doctrine. But I would be interested to know where he falls on the greater issues of being in "communion" with the US Lutherans, not sure if there's a better term. Do you know if he has spoken out about this?

Terry

From the web site linked I see that Pr. White is in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, which has not been in communion with the ELCA and in fact declared the ELCA to be "not an orthodox Lutheran body" some fifteen or so years ago.

LC-MS President Gerald Kieschnick addressed the ELCA Assembly the day after their votes to allow non-celibate gay clergy. He was (rightfully) very stern in rebuking their action.

My personal assessment is that any possibility intra-Lutheran unity in the USA is irreparably shattered.

The distinctions confuse me, seeing them from the outside. Unity is difficult when incommensurable differences remain unresolved.

The segment of the population that take pride in sin does not tolerate those who shun and would be ashamed of that sin. To me, that's what it comes down to. You can put any sin in there and have the same conflict. A group of people take pride in usury or a group that takes pride in deceit would not tolerate those who say that there's more to life than money or that there is such a thing as truth.

Last time I looked - which is a few decades ago - the Missouri Synod was strongly Biblically oriented.

Fr. Serge

Indeed, for the LC-MS believing in a literal six x twenty-four hour day Creation is an article of faith.

By contrast, the Presiding Bishop of the ELCA has stated repeatedly that there are "two competing hermeneutics"; one which is a bit more relaxed than Missouri (Scripture is authorotative, but belief 6-day Creation is not required) versus a post-modern skepticism born of "gospel reductionism".

The latter rejects anything in Scripture which is not "gospel", which is redefined as God is all-inclusive, all embracing, non-judgemental.

Obviously the latter prevailed in Minneapolis.

What is truly insidious is that the segment taking pride in sin has redifined their behavior so that it is no longer considered sinful.

Those who call them to account are considered the REAL sinners because they are deemed "intolerant" and "judgemental".

Reminds me of a quote from St. Anthony of the Desert:

"There will come a time when people will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad they will say, 'You are mad; you are not like us.'"

Pastor Thomas:

Christ is in our midst!!

Be assured of the prayers of support of your brethren here as you and your brethren struggle with this situation. May the Lord walk with you as you continue your pilgrimage with Him.

BOB

BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST: All this trouble, hate, suspicion et al over what the Bible does or does not say about homosexuality is now a major issue for the ELCA, There is talk of losing many members; forming their own church, etc. Another good example of the private interpretation of the Bible.

Well, I will be offering prayers that all will come to their senses and begin the healing process, and the PAX CHRISTI will ne with them.

Pastor Thomas:

Chrsit is in our midst!!

It seems to me that the idea that God is "non_judgmental" is the error of our time. Certainly Scripture could not be more plain about that.

We all judge. I decided to have fish rather than meat last evening. I chose a light colored vehicle rather than a dark one. I chose to be in the profession I am in rather than another. Being "non-judgmental" would mean we would all be unable to function.

It seems to me that the phrase is meant to indicate the judging of someone else's motivation, not the acts done. Acts can be judged objectively wrong or right, but the motivation in the person's heart is what we are not to jedge because only God can see into the depths of a man's heart and determine whether an act stems from a good or an evil intention.

As for sexual sin of any kind, a poorly formed conscience can be the reason rather than a deep-seated determination to go against centuries of Chritians teaching. So for that reason we cannot judge a person eveil because of the actions he does. But we also have an obligation in charity to speak out when a person jeopardizes his immortal soul with actions that the Creator has taught us in Revelation to be against His Will. By failing, we participate in the sin by omission.

BOB

Reminds me of a quote from St. Anthony of the Desert: "There will come a time when people will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad they will say, 'You are mad; you are not like us.'"

Pastor Thomas,

I have often wondered how to best respond to such madness. Not only with this specific issue of openly homosexual bishops, but with the culture at large. A relative of mine has not embraced the truths of Christianity and is so stubborn that I am beginning to get the impression that my relative has no conscience when disobeying parents and venturing into behavior that is dangerous to the soul. I won't get into specifics, but it's something that forces me to pray and hope.

It is that loss of conscience that I think plays a role in this conflict. "Woe to those who call evil good, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5:20).

Thank you all so much.

My spirit is keenly aware of the prayers of many faithful from many backgrounds; and although this is a time of distress and bereavement there is nevertheless tremendous peace even in the midst of conflict.

Thomas the Seeker,

You may be interested in this interview:

From Wittenberg to Antioch [ancientfaith.com]