www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions?

DT:


Christ is in our midst!!

When I received the Holy Gifts in Orthodox parishes and the antidoron, the consistency was very dense and very firm--nothing anywhere near soft. In fact, the antidoron was so firma dn dry that I couldn't swallow it without some of the unblessed wine that was offered after it.

BOB

I imagine there are differences and thanks for sharing your experience. I guess I noticed a difference in my experience realizing the bread was fresher and had not been previously frozen. When I was Orthodox, I received in both OCA and Greek parishes. I never partook of the unblessed wine at zapivka, though I understood why some did. (The Greek and Antiochian parishes I attended never had the unblessed wine with antidoron.)

Correction:

In doing further research, I find mention that some parishes that follow the prosphora traditions do permit freezing of loaves. See this page [roca.org] for an example.

These days, I don't know many clergy or lay bakers who make prosphora fresh for every Divine Liturgy. It is very, very common for prosphora bakers to bake a large batch and freeze it, thawing loaves as needed. Loaves will keep nicely for a couple months, if frozen properly so as to prevent freezer burn.

This has nothing to do with pre-cut particles, Orthodox versus Catholic practice, or "Russian" versus "Greek" loaves. It is simply a matter of practicality that transcends ecclesiastical boundaries.

Dave

There is no doubt that the rubrics were written in the expectation that the bread would not only be fresh, it would even be hot out of the oven; i.e., that the Lamb, when excised from the loaf, should be placed face (crust) down on the diskos, in order to keep the warm bread from sticking to the plate (the Lamb is turned right side up slightly later in the Proskomide). But that is a strictly pragmatic matter, not something with theological import (though, I suppose, one could create a mystagogical reason for using warm bread). Today, when most people do not bake their own bread every day, to expect the Babas and Yayas to show up at the doors with hot loaves of prosphora, so baking it in batches and freezing some to keep fresh is an acceptable, pragmatic accommodation to reality.

The Lamb is placed Seal down briefly on the Diskos so that a cross-wise cut can be made in the bottom all the way down to the crust, while the priest says:

"Sacrificed is the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world, for the life and salvation of the world."

The Lamb is then immediately set aright on the Diskos. This allows a clean fracture of the Lamb into its four parts before Holy Communion.

I really don't think it has anything at all to do with hot loaves. As any bread baker knows, it is quite difficult to cut bread hot from the oven. The Prokomedia would be a mess.

Fr David Straut

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Both Taft and Kelleher have written that the original purpose of the rubric was to keep the warm Lamb from sticking. I am merely the messenger.

What is the timeframe for the aforementioned pre-cutting by deacons in Hagia Sophia; at what time did the Lamb became a feature of the liturgy?

My experience was based on some smaller parishes that apparently used fresh loaves. I appreciate the clarification on normative practices in parishes that follow prosphora traditions today.

This is an incredibly interesting thread, and I am learning a lot from the discussion.

Can I wonder in writing? If it is off topic say please let me know. It might be appropriate for a separate discussion. But maybe not, as some of the discussion has almost touched on the reasons for the loss of the proper proskomedia.

It seems that at the proskomedia the priest did his ‘work’. Cutting of the particles, and praying for the patrons, donors, benefactors, etc., was his ‘work’! He did this carefully and conscientiously. This was his job, his responsibility as a priest and pastor.

The Liturgy, especially the Anaphora (the Consecration) itself was not the priest’s work, but the Lord’s work. [“It is You, O Christ, our God, Who offer and are offered, Who receive and are distributed, and to You we send up glory, with Your Father who is without beginning, and with Your all holy, good and life-creating Spirit, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.”]

Now, with a Latin theological mindset replacing the Byzantine mindset within most of the Greek Catholic Churches, the anaphora became priest’s work (rather than just that of the Holy Spirit). It seems (maybe I am wrong?) that it became the priest’s work, his offering to the donor(s) (think “Mass Stipend” here). Logically it follows that if the ‘Consecration’ (the making of Eucharist) became the priest’s work (instead of the Holy Spirit’s work, almost like Latin theology) then the Proskomedia would naturally be of less importance.

If this thought does not seem to fit in with this discussion I can split it to a new thread. Or forget about it and just keep considering it offline. Let me know.

--

As a possible additional to this discussion (maybe to help with both history and perspective) it might be good to add in a description of the custom of the prosphora commemoration (how the people offer the prosphora, how the priest receives it and prays, what the people do with the blessed prosphora once it is returned).

Interesting thought. The Proskomedia has taken on a reduced meaning in the life of the Byzantine Catholic Church. It is hardly ever mentioned in any of our catechetical materials. Byzantine Seminary Press has published a "Catechetical commentary on the Divine Liturgy" which omits discussion of the Proskomedia.

If the Proskomedia was omitted from the Divine Liturgy would we even notice?

I think this is key to restoring the importance of what happens in the Proskomedia to the life of the faithful.

Are there participants here who have these practices in their parishes? How do these parishes implement these?

Instead of a sermon, Father did an entire Proskomedia in the middle of the parish to explain how it's done. He also explained the role of the Antimension.

It was very informing, and many more questions were asked after Liturgy.

When I visited Saints Cyril and Methodius Parish in Cary, NC, I was surprised to find the entire Proskomide done in the nave, rather than behind the iconostasis. It was later explained that, because the church was actually a converted house, there was insufficient room inside the sanctuary for a Table of Preparation, therefore the Rite of Preparation was done in the nave. This also had beneficial catechetical value, and to some extent captured the flavor of the original rite, when the Gifts were brought into the church from the detached Skeuophylakion.

By the way, no pre-cut particles were in evidence, but I cannot swear that the bread was baked fresh that morning.

Cary, NC

Is that Fr. Rick (Richard). If it is who I am thinking of, that was probably a glorious DL. I remember when he was studying and living at the Russicum. I had the great pleasure of driving out from PA to MI with him some years back. He is a wonderful man.